Getting the 270WSM ready

[JustOneMoreShot]

Thanks for all the information guys. Love the discussion.
The point about the GA heat is well taken. That is one reason I like to try and develop loads in high ambient temperatures. If I am at or near max pressures when I developed the load on a hot day I do not have to worry about it being hotter when I am hunting.
I did shoot several loads with H1000. I can post the targets as well but they were not as pretty as the ones I posted above.
FYI the 70g of Retumbo was a very full case! And I enjoyed hearing it crunch as the Bergers were seated!

 

[eLightfoot]

I like to keep it simple. use one powder, one bullet, play with seating depth, and charge weight, until you can prove that the powder won't work in your gun. using a bunch of powders and charge weights, and multiple bullets is like playing pin the tail on the donkey. However, in my experience, tikkas shoot so damn well with multiple loads its hard to go wrong. I've had good results with RL-19 and RL-17, those are the only powders i've put through it though. No need to experiment further when you get 1/2" groups out of a light hunting rifle.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

eLightfoot. I disagree with pin the tail on the donkey. Some might argue that use one bullet and one powder might be considered square peg round hole.
I believe that there are many different ways to arrive at a favorite load for a particular rifle. In my case the range is 2:30 drive each way and I have children and a wife that would rather me be home so I did what I thought I could to cover as many bases as possible. I did want to shoot and collect as much data as I could because I can't run back out tomorrow and shoot another couple of shots.
I'm happy with the targets and there are several loads that I could declare the one right now and be good to go. For a nearly straight of the box and relatively inexpensive lightweight rifle I'm very happy.
KMD. There is definitely a loose nut behind the trigger! I am sure the horizontal is mostly all me or maybe the thin barrel as it was a challenge to rush and not allow it to cool sufficiently.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

I loaded and brought to the range but didn't shoot:
140gBerger w Retumbo 71.5g 71g, 70.5g, 70g, 69.5g
150gBerger w H4831SC 63g, 62.5g, 62g, 61.5g
150gNosler ABLR RL22 59g

Someone asked about H1000 and I did shoot 62-64g with 150g ABLR and 66.5-68.5g with 150g Berger VLD Hunting (both in 0.5g increments)

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

Here are the best of the H1000 targets. Remember these were at 200y not 100y and yes unfortunately the nut behind the trigger yanked the crap out of the one in the 66.5g of H1000

 

[AZ Vince]

Honestly, even though I like the RL 22 best of what you've posted, I'd look at a different bullet if it were me.

We can each argue how we get around the barn, so to speak, but in the end we all have to get around the barn. Some of us will go over the barn to the other side, some will go left, and some right, while a few of us might tunnel under the barn to get there. I look for low velocity spread in my loads. With that said I also look at group size and velocity. Right now I'm thinking his rifle is telling him he hasn't found the right bullet and powder combo but I think it's the bullet more so than the powder.

Things like seating depth are for after you have found an "acceptable load" and you are just tweaking it for wringing out the last bit of accuracy.

Just my $0.02.

 

[HOT ROD]

I am my no means a expert here. If I start a working up a load. And it doesn't shoot at a particular oal. Than I should just give up. I was ready to give up on bergers in my 270wsm. I got no were close to the groups JustOneMoreShot got .Shooting them as long as I could. But I started backing them up .30 at a time. And found it shoots very well at a oal 2.700. What am I missing in the rl22 group? Like I said I am just learning my self. I am not trying to start a pi-- match here.

 

[KMD]

Honestly, even though I like the RL 22 best of what you've posted, I'd look at a different bullet if it were me.

We can each argue how we get around the barn, so to speak, but in the end we all have to get around the barn. Some of us will go over the barn to the other side, some will go left, and some right, while a few of us might tunnel under the barn to get there.

I completely understand different approaches. But settling for a load that's hamstringing a cartridge's potential by 350-400 fps isn't a different approach at the barn, its missing the barn completely...

I look for low velocity spread in my loads.

Again, chronographs LIE. We're not using high dollar Doppler hardware here, these few hundred dollar chronos are utterly fallable.
If you want to prove a load, shoot it at distance and let the target tell you the truth! Chrono #s are a guideline, not hard data to base final decisions on. I see a lot of guys get hung up on chrono #s, and I think its a mistake to put too many eggs in the chrono basket. Bullet holes in the target speak the truth...

Right now I'm thinking his rifle is telling him he hasn't found the right bullet and powder combo but I think it's the bullet more so than the powder.

Right now, I'm thinking that his factory rifle is shooting under 1MOA @ 200yds, and that is a VERY GOOD THING!

This isn't a bench gun, its a handy hunting rig the gent put together. IMHO, conveying that a solid, 3/4MOA group @ 200yds somehow isn't "right", is bad advice, as the bar is being set too high for a factory hunting rig. I see a lot of guys getting too hung up on chasing the "one hole unicorn", as if every factory rifle should be able to catch one?
My reality is, a factory rifle shooting honest, consistent <MOA groups is a great goal to shoot for and achieve! IMHO, frustration comes when guys try to ask too much of their factory equipment and attempt to wring out accuracy potential that might not be achievable from that platform. Not saying that settling is for just any load is OK, rather trying to impress that being more realistic with expectations from a factory rifle is the smart move to play when testing reloads. KEEP IT REAL...

The OP is shooting a factory rifle, and Retumbo is giving very good accuracy and kickazz velocity with those 150s. If I were him, I'd be tickled pink to have a solid shootin' factory rifle and load developed! Forget about the unicorn and just go shoot!!!

For conversation...

 

[AZ Vince]

I completely understand different approaches. But settling for a load that's hamstringing a cartridge's potential by 350-400 fps isn't a different approach at the barn, its missing the barn completely...



Again, chronographs LIE. We're not using high dollar Doppler hardware here, these few hundred dollar chronos are utterly fallable.
If you want to prove a load, shoot it at distance and let the target tell you the truth! Chrono #s are a guideline, not hard data to base final decisions on. I see a lot of guys get hung up on chrono #s, and I think its a mistake to put too many eggs in the chrono basket. Bullet holes in the target speak the truth...

I'm well aware of that.

Right now, I'm thinking that his factory rifle is shooting under 1MOA @ 200yds, and that is a VERY GOOD THING!

Your standards are different than mine.
While I'll shoot 3/4 MOA I prefer half MOA if I can get it. I happen to think that can be obtained with a factory stock rifle and a little work, both on the rifle and the load. This is not rocket science and the rifle work can be done by oneself.

This isn't a bench gun, its a handy hunting rig the gent put together. IMHO, conveying that a solid, 3/4MOA group @ 200yds somehow isn't "right", is bad advice, as the bar is being set too high for a factory hunting rig. I see a lot of guys getting too hung up on chasing the "one hole unicorn", as if every factory rifle should be able to catch one?
My reality is, a factory rifle shooting honest, consistent <MOA groups is a great goal to shoot for and achieve! IMHO, frustration comes when guys try to ask too much of their factory equipment and attempt to wring out accuracy potential that might not be achievable from that platform. Not saying that settling is for just any load is OK, rather trying to impress that being more realistic with expectations from a factory rifle is the smart move to play when testing reloads. KEEP IT REAL...

See my response above.

The OP is shooting a factory rifle, and Retumbo is giving very good accuracy and kickazz velocity with those 150s. If I were him, I'd be tickled pink to have a solid shootin' factory rifle and load developed! Forget about the unicorn and just go shoot!!!

Like I said, we have different standards.
Some folks accept mediocrity and some don't.

For conversation...

Just saying.

 

[HOT ROD]

AZ Vince what is Ur reasoning for the wrong powder bullet combo. More bullet than powder? What do U see in those groups. That make U think that. I just started reloading. And I am trying to learn as much as I can....

 

[AZ Vince]

Two and one is, from my limited experience, a good indicator of the wrong bullet.
The rifle is trying to shoot it well but it can't for whatever reason.
The bullet is more important than the powder. I'm currently working on a .338 Win Mag load that needs tweaking. Those are acceptable groups for 200 yards, some of them, but it's not that hard to get a factory stock rifle to shoot at least half MOA in my experience. At 200 yards I want 3/4" groups.
I understand wanting to use a certain bullet but you have to use what the rifle likes and each rifle barrel is a creature unto itself.
One responder says that the loss in velocity using RL 22 is missing the barn completely. I disagree.
Accuracy is first. That 1" change in bullet impact will miss the heat at 600 yards turning a heart/lung shot in to a lung or gut shot. Yeah, I like very accurate rifles and with today's manufacturing processes accurate rifles are the norm and not an anomaly. Why not take advantage of that and produce the most accurate load you can?
If it were me I'd try another bullet with a powder that gives you the velocity you want with a single digit deviation. Yes, care had to be taken to set up the chronograph properly, and shooting at distance will be the determining factor, but neither is it chasing Unicorns.

 

[Shrek]

I'd give the H1000 with 66.5 grain another look and some RL17. I have never used the RL17 but the H1000 often gives better es than retumbo and varies less lot to lot for sure.
Three shot groups are not really definitive. At least 5 shot groups and then reshoot the contenders.

 

[Shrek]

The 70.0 gr retumbo is the group to chase. The rl22 group is bigger and unless the chrono was an oelher 35p or a magneto speed I wouldn't put any faith in the spreads. Let the targets tell the tale. Smaller group and way more velocity is the way to go imo.

 

[Cahunter805]

I shoot the 150vld over 67gr of h1000 in my custom 270wsm into bugholes. I'd try the 66.5gr load again and fine tune the seating depth.

In my experience 2 shots in and 1 out is usually seating depth.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

Thanks for all the help everyone. It is interesting to see so many different opinions on the targets that I shot and the groups produced.
I asked a very knowledgeable friend what he thought of the groups and he liked the 70g of Retumbo with the 150g Bergers. He is a well renowned long range shooter. He had some good insight on some of my groups.
I did take a pair of calipers to the targets. The 70g Retumbo group measured .780 inches from the center to center of the biggest spread. That gives me .372MOA. (If you want to run the math 1MOA is 1.047" at 100y and 1MOA is 2.094" at 200y. Thus .780 / 2.094 gives you 0.372)
I am very happy with a factory rifle shooting 0.372 with a very fast load shooting a very high BC bullet which will help me with slight wind miscalculations.
Perhaps I could find a different powder or a different bullet that may be slightly better? But I am afraid that I am not a benchrest caliber shooter and this is not a benchrest gun. The barrel is not a match heavy barrel. It gets hot after two shots and scortching hot after four. The rifle is not even bedded! I would prefer not to bed it to add weight as it is the rifle I plan to carry to the top of mountains for sheep and goats.
It is also possible some of the other groups (or this one even may be) much better if I had not thrown a shot out of the group! The 68.5g Retumbo with 150g Berger has two holes touching and the third hole 32mm (1.25") away.

Cahunter805 You likely have much more time behind the trigger than I however 2 shots in and 1 out to me means I likely threw or pulled a shot. Its just highlighting my shooting abilities and it is magnified by the very light rifle.

 

[KMD]

This is a thought provoking discussion, just what I'd hoped for! Not wanting to be right, or wrong...just wanting you guys to THINK about what you're doing when reloading for a rifle and if your efforts are being rewarded...or wasted.

Need to add: my opinion is being based on the OP's FACTORY rifle. I'm of the opinion that factory rifles are NOT consistent 'one hole', or even 1/2 MOA capable on a consistent basis.
In the real world in which I choose to live in, a true, consistent 1/2 MOA rifle is a rare bird. To realize that consistent performance, a rifle would need to be custom built, not picked up at a big box store. IE, trued action, custom hand lapped barrel, properly bedded stock, and a min. spec'ed chamber designed to launch a chosen bullet. Combine that, with sound loading techniques and good components, and you'll likely have a solid, 1/2MOA shooter to enjoy. And it'll likely shoot a bit better for ya, from time to time. With a solid built custom rifle, all ya have to do is be consistent behind the trigger to realize the potential...

That said, I do not believe that consistent 1/2MOA factory rifles grow on trees, and they sure don't come outta cardboard boxes. Sure, there are some freaky accurate factory rifles, but they are NOT the norm...despite the fact that every other swinging Richard on the 'net has a 'one holer Savage' (that was a joke, BTW)
There's a clue there, as to why shooters spend $$$ on custom rifles...its because factory rifles actually don't shoot as good in real life as they do on the internet Therefore, holding a factory box rifle to unrealistic (my opinion) standards, is folly...

As for comparing a 1/2 moa to 3/4moa in a big game hunting situation, that minisucle accuracy differential is lost in the wash, at all but the longest distances! And here's why: @ 1000yds, 1/4moa measures ONLY 2.6"! I challenge ANYONE to find me a shooter who can hold smaller than that differential under field conditions and I'll eat my own rifle, dipped in hot sauce. And it dang sure ain't gonna happen with a factory Tikka hunting rifle (NO offense to OP). Just keeping in context with the thread...

Now, consider that factor of how WIND, and determining the effect it has on bullet POI at distance, and you'll see how even more easily that elusive extra 1/4moa of accuracy can soooooeasily get lost in the 'white noise' of a aggregate group. Which is another reason to quit chasing for accuracy that might not be there in the first place, from a factory rifle...

Finally, big game animals have rather large vital 'kill zones'. So, if a 3/4moa rifle is not accurate enough to take a certain shot, then its highly doubtful that a 1/2moa rifle is going to be a deal maker/breaker. If it is, then that shot should NOT BE TAKEN in the first place. Remember, 1/4 moa = less than 2" @ 600yds!!! Anybody here know of anyone who can consistently hold less than a 2" group in the wind @ 600yds, with a factory hunting rifle??? I didn't think so. So there's yet another reason to not bother eeeking out an extra 1/4moa from a factory hunting rifle. See the trend here?

These factors are why I feel that a solid 3/4moa factory hunting rifle load is PLENTY GOOD to be satisfied with.


I have several custom rifles that I hold to higher standards, but this thread isn't about me, or my rifles. It's about the OP's factory hunting rifle that he is proud to have, and I like that he's got there. And that's why I'm recommending that he "keep it real" with group size expectations, and not chase the accuracy fairy who rides a purple unicorn that eats H4350. IMHO, the OP is better served to find a good load that realizes the potential killing power of the cartridge, prove it on paper, then SHOOT IT! Don't get caught up chasing others' internet accuaracy expectations...

Good luck, have fun, and good shooting!

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

KMD (and others/everyone)
Thank you for the help. I am quite pleased with the rifle and like everyone wish that it was a true "one holer" but understand that I am not a one holer shooter nor a master reloader. My game needs most improvement on learning and reading the wind.
I plan on loading more of a few different combinations and going back to my buddies range. I could shoot out to 300y and see what the groups look like. I have a .416Rigby coming in and I need to get a low power optic mounted on it and get it on paper. That should help me get over the recoil of the light 270WSM ! Ha! Just kidding. I am not recoil shy at all but it may not be the best day to really focus on small groups. Perhaps I could shoot the 270 first and then bring out the big boomer after I am finished with the precision work.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

I got away for a few hours this weekend and shot the 270WSM a bit more. It was kind of a last minute trip because the inlaws came in town unexpectadly which gives my wife help watching the kids. It is easier to ask for time away from the house when she is not the only one watching the kids... so I only loaded a handful of 70g Retumbo and was up until 2:30AM finishing the reloading. I also brought my 6.5x284 made by Spoon Custom and it was just my second time shooting it and the first time reloading for it.
Unfortunately I did not get the group size to shrink. I was still just shooting at 200y. It was super hot and was over 90 degrees before 10:00AM with wind in my face (12:00) at 6-8mph.
I have been playing with a fun computer program called OnTarget. There are two versions the latest has a trial period that I have expired on. The older version is available as freeware and works fine as far as I can tell. It is pretty easy to use.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

Here is the previous group that I ran through the OnTarget software to compute the MOA. That is my best group to date with this rifle and 70.0g Retumbo

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

Here are the three new three shot groups that I printed this past weekend all at 200y