Full bore vs Sabots

[07yzryder]

Waiting on my ML now, knight ultra light.

I have the thor and the no excuses sizing kit as well as some 290tmz on the way.

Real question is what is the benefit of full bore over Sabots with the exception of laws. I'm in NV so I can use either.

Im putting in for both muley and elk if it matters. NV is iron sights only so absolute max range after some training will be 300 reality is 200 and under.

 

[wildwilderness]

Only benefit of full bore is larger frontal area- more shock potential. However this also reduces the Sectional Density and subsequently penetration. Also reduces Ballistic Coefficient, but at true muzzleloading distance shouldn't matter.... Deer it shouldn't matter much, elk you want all the penetration you can get.

 

[07yzryder]

what's the tradeoff in weight vs SD in the projectiles? I know normally more mass=more penetration and the full bore has more mass, but obviously .45 vs .50.

If what your saying is true then i should stick with a heavy sabot for elk and can get away with a lighter for muleys (though ill probably just stick with one for the consistency).

 

[ENCORE]

The sabot has ALWAYS been the weakest link in modern muzzleloader shooting. Just like shooting in warm/hot weather, if you don't let that barrel cool down, you'll throw bullets.

I'll just say this, I have no clue what post #2 is talking about.

If you shoot a 50cal and bullet to bore, you're not loosing anything over shooting a sabot and a 45cal bullet in a sabot in that 50cal. Likewise a 45cal and shooting saboted bullets which are smaller than the bore size.

The most accurate muzzleloaders, rather 50's, 45', or others are ALL shooting bullet to bore. I can also assure you of this.............. Inline muzzleloader competitors are all shooting bullet to bore.

Sabots are and always have been, always will be the weakest link.

Arrowhead XLD bullets Bullets & Sabots – Arrowhead Rifles

Fury bullets Black powder muzzleloader (furycustombullets.com)

Parker bullets Muzzleloading Projectiles -- Sabots-Ballistic tip-Traditional Hunter – Parker Productions Inc

Pittman bullets Pittman Bullets™ - High Performance Muzzleloading - AccuMax ™.452" / AccuMax ™ Hard Core .452" Muzzleloading Bullets

 

[Rich M]

Fury makes some nice bullets for .357 rifles and .355 350 legend. Excellent results so far. 357 mag to 225 yds so far. 350 Legend to 250. If I had known I might not have gone with the 350 Legend.

Anyway -
Found their ML bullets as I been considering getting a ML. Will try Fury before any others.

 

[NBChance]

I think Wildwilderness summed up the technical differences between sabot and full bore very well. I've only hunted with sabots in the past and have had great success with them. I've found it takes quite a bit of experimentation to find the right bullet / sabot combo that my gun likes. Once I've found it, accuracy and consistency have been outstanding. I've never had fliers or had anything happen where I thought the sabot had failed. However, I've never done any volume shooting where my barrel gets even warm.

I've found the tighter the fit, the better the accuracy. There is definitely a fine line to walk between tight enough for great accuracy, and being able to reload in the field without having to swab. For this reason I like to hunt with BH 209 powder, so I don't have to deal with fouling in the field.

I've had really good results with the Barnes 290gr TMZ. I shot a large mule deer at 218 yards a few years ago with this bullet in my TC Omega and got full penetration and a large exit on a slightly quartering shot. I'm currently working at the range with the Thor 300gr one size fits all, and my guns really like it - outstanding accuracy. It fits relatively tight in my TC Omega, and even tighter in my CVA Accura PR. Seating it is definitely not as smooth as the TMZ. The all copper full bore has a kind of rough / sticky feel to it when you are pushing it down the bore.

I'd expect the TMZ would have better penetration on elk size game than the Thor due to it's better sectional density, but I'm expecting all other terminal performance characteristics to be similar.

 

[tdhanses]

Interesting, if sabots are such an improvement why hasn’t the rifle community jumped onboard?

Sorry but I can’t believe a plastic cover touching the rifling is better then the actual bullet. Only reason for a sabot is to shoot a smaller bullet at higher velocity.

I‘ve never used a sabot, have some but guess it just hasn’t appealed to me to shoot them.

 

[ENCORE]

Interesting, if sabots are such an improvement why hasn’t the rifle community jumped onboard?

Sorry but I can’t believe a plastic cover touching the rifling is better then the actual bullet. Only reason for a sabot is to shoot a smaller bullet at higher velocity.

I‘ve never used a sabot, have some but guess it just hasn’t appealed to me to shoot them.

Sabots are quickly becoming something of the past for both 50cal and 45cal rifles. I mentioned it already but, it is and always has been, always will be the weakest link.
It doesn't mean that someone may not be able to shoot them with some degree of accuracy. To shoot 20 rounds using sabots on a day when its 75° or 80°+, you'll be 3 hours to give the barrel enough time to cool between shots. Well you could use cooling rods and speed up the process but, who wants to cart around a piece of PVC pipe full of ice, cold water and aluminum rods?
In any major modern inline shooting event/competition, you won't find the competitors using sabots. There's a reason for that.

 

[Lee_R]

Waiting on my ML now, knight ultra light.

I have the thor and the no excuses sizing kit as well as some 290tmz on the way.

Real question is what is the benefit of full bore over Sabots with the exception of laws. I'm in NV so I can use either.

Im putting in for both muley and elk if it matters. NV is iron sights only so absolute max range after some training will be 300 reality is 200 and under.

If I were you, I'd call knight. One of my best friends was a rep for them for 20 yrs and I've personally shot their guns for 15 years (no experience with any other muzzleloader manufacturer). There's a reason most of the bullets they sell on their website use sabots. I don't know what it is, but I've taken their advice and shot the Barnes TMZ or TEZ exclusively per their recommendation and have not been disappointed with accuracy or terminal performance on deer, elk and black bear.

 

[ENCORE]

..............one of my best friends was a rep for them for 20 yrs and I've personally shot their guns for 15 years (no experience with any other muzzleloader manufacturer). There's a reason most of the bullets they sell on their website use sabots............

The bullets they're selling on the web site using sabots are there for a reason, saboted bullets are what most hunters are used to shooting. That is changing rapidly. Not many use those controlled fracturing bullets but, there is a small following. There's also a reason the controlled fracturing bullets are the first you see on the web site.
Knight rifles, especially the fast twist 45cal rifles, are the top production rifle winners in competition. No other manufacturer can even compare. I've shot against those same rifles at Friendship and I can assure you, not a single Knight rifle on the line is shooting sabots. And.... that included Justin. As competitors we all hunt too, and still there is no use of sabots.
I'm not saying sabots don't have their place, but for accuracy, especially long range, bullet to bore will outshoot sabots on any given day. I've shot thousands of rounds using sabots and also bullet to bore. I never intend to use a sabot again.
Shoot what works for you............

 

[Dioni A]

I've shot both and truly believe for average hunting purposes your fine with either. I don't question anything said in this post, but for a dedicated hunting rig with open sights it's a moot point. Just pick your bullet off on game performance. There's plenty that excel in either category.

 

[tdhanses]

I shoot a Knight ultra lite and it shoots amazing and never had a sabot ran through it.

 

[NBChance]

Regarding full-bore, I have been working with the Thor one-size 300gr. This bullet loads decently well, and shoots fantastic in my TC Omega, in front of a charge of 84 gr by weight of BH 209. I tried the same combo in my Accura PR, and don't like the way it loads. It's difficult to start and to get down the bore. I'm guessing I need to get the sizing pack and find the right size for my bore. Any of you guys have experience with the Thor in a CVA Accura? If so, how much loading force are you dealing with when you have what you consider to be the right size for your bore? Are you adding any lube to this or similar all copper / copper jacketed full bores?

One of the things I like about shooting a sabot is that once I find the right combination of sabot / bullet size, loading is smooth and consistent. Since I am a hunter, and I use a very slow cadence when shooting at the range, barrel heating is a complete non-issue. I'm finding that loading the Thor, even in my Omega, is not nearly as smooth and consistent as loading a sabot. Any advice from you guys with more experience with all copper or jacketed full bores is appreciated.

 

[ENCORE]

Regarding full-bore, I have been working with the Thor one-size 300gr. This bullet loads decently well, and shoots fantastic in my TC Omega, in front of a charge of 84 gr by weight of BH 209. I tried the same combo in my Accura PR, and don't like the way it loads. It's difficult to start and to get down the bore. I'm guessing I need to get the sizing pack and find the right size for my bore. Any of you guys have experience with the Thor in a CVA Accura? If so, how much loading force are you dealing with when you have what you consider to be the right size for your bore? Are you adding any lube to this or similar all copper / copper jacketed full bores?

One of the things I like about shooting a sabot is that once I find the right combination of sabot / bullet size, loading is smooth and consistent. Since I am a hunter, and I use a very slow cadence when shooting at the range, barrel heating is a complete non-issue. I'm finding that loading the Thor, even in my Omega, is not nearly as smooth and consistent as loading a sabot. Any advice from you guys with more experience with all copper or jacketed full bores is appreciated.

I would never lubricate a copper jacketed bullet.

Barrel bore sizes are different so you really need a sizing pack for your Accura.

If you really want to shoot bullet to bore, find accuracy and a consistent loading force, you should consider a sizing die.

 

[CAhunter]

The Barnes TEZ shoot really well out of my Knight ultralight. I ordered some full bore Thor’s recently to use in CO and I’m hoping they shoot as well the sabots.

 

[NBChance]

I shot two Barnes TEZ 290gr in my new Accura PR and they looked very promising. However, I only have a couple left and can't find them anywhere, so decided to not pursue working up this load.

Earlier this week I worked up a load of 84 gr (by weight) Blackhorn 209, with a Barnes TMZ, using a harvester yellow, boat tail crush rib sabot. I had a variable 7 - 10MPH wind, but was able to shoot a 1" 100yd 3 shot group from a solid bench, using a scope. The recovered sabots looked a bit "beat-up" after firing, but I did not have any fliers. This is probably a go to load, but always looking to improve...

I decided to order some blue boat tail sabots from Knight, which are made by MMP, and advertised as built for heavy loads. I'll try these with the Barnes 290 TMZ when I receive them. Barnes 290 TMZ with the factory yellow sabot will shoot cloverleaf groups with 84 gr Blackhorn 209 out of my TC Omega. I'd like to repeat these groups with my Accura PR.

My tags this year are in NV and Utah, so I'm not under any pressure to get a full-bore load dialed in yet.

 

[txhunter581]

The advantages of sabots that I can see don’t have much to do with accuracy. Hunting is not competitive shooting, and accuracy for conicals and sabots are both more than adequate for hunting.

The advantages of sabots that I can see are due to increased muzzle velocity (due to lower weight bullets) which can have less drop at long range. And secondly, better construction of the bullets available. However, some newer conicals ( mentioned above) are catching up recently in construction.

Disclaimer: I have never shot a sabot. . Not sure I ever will, because I generally only hunt Colorado. But I will give sabots a look see when I get picked for Utah. Lots of great reports using the 290 Barnes sabots at longer ranges on elk

 

[ENCORE]

I shot two Barnes TEZ 290gr in my new Accura PR and they looked very promising. However, I only have a couple left and can't find them anywhere, so decided to not pursue working up this load.

Earlier this week I worked up a load of 84 gr (by weight) Blackhorn 209, with a Barnes TMZ, using a harvester yellow, boat tail crush rib sabot. I had a variable 7 - 10MPH wind, but was able to shoot a 1" 100yd 3 shot group from a solid bench, using a scope. The recovered sabots looked a bit "beat-up" after firing, but I did not have any fliers. This is probably a go to load, but always looking to improve...

I decided to order some blue boat tail sabots from Knight, which are made by MMP, and advertised as built for heavy loads. I'll try these with the Barnes 290 TMZ when I receive them. Barnes 290 TMZ with the factory yellow sabot will shoot cloverleaf groups with 84 gr Blackhorn 209 out of my TC Omega. I'd like to repeat these groups with my Accura PR.

My tags this year are in NV and Utah, so I'm not under any pressure to get a full-bore load dialed in yet.

If you really need to have some, I have 13 bullet/sabots you can have as I'll never shoot them.

 

[GMB54-120]

If I were you, I'd call knight. One of my best friends was a rep for them for 20 yrs and I've personally shot their guns for 15 years (no experience with any other muzzleloader manufacturer). There's a reason most of the bullets they sell on their website use sabots. I don't know what it is, but I've taken their advice and shot the Barnes TMZ or TEZ exclusively per their recommendation and have not been disappointed with accuracy or terminal performance on deer, elk and black bear.

Ask them why that is NOT what the vast majority of Knight Pro Staffers are shooting at Friendship. Its 99% dominated by sabotless and for good reason.

Over 2100fps with a 275gr bullet in the 45s will rival any Knight 50cal shooting sabots and spank it silly when barrel heat is an issue. 45cal appears to be legal in NV so there aint snow balls chance i would consider a 50 shooting sabots.

 

[NBChance]

Regarding full-bore, I've mentioned here about working with the Thor. I like the design from a controlled expansion and decent ballistic coefficient perspective. I can get a pretty good trajectory and terminal performance out to my max range of around 225 yds, for up to elk size game. What other full-bore bullets would you guys recommend that would perform in this envelope with a 1:28" twist barrel? I'm not sure a pure lead conical would be ideal, or am I mistaken? Any input from guys with real field experience is appreciated.

Again, I'm not talking about target shooting. I need something that performs on elk size game.