Fragments in Meat?

[Chris_in_Idaho]

I'll bet people would be more healthy eating game with microscopic lead particles than farm raised hormone/drug injected beef without any lead.

Agreed. But, those aren't the only two choices. If it was just factory meat vs leaded game meat, I would choose the leaded game meat.

But there are actually three choices: factory meat vs leaded game meat vs unleaded game meat.

It's just as easy to grab one box of bullets as the other. So, the fact that store bought meat is worse isn't really a factor in choosing a bullet. Unless I'm missing something?

The way I see the choice is:

Lead:
*can use smaller caliber with less recoil (6mm?)
*less recoil = spot own impacts
*quicker incapacitation (depending on placement)
*more chance of fragments in meat for wife to bite
*possibility of chronic exposure effects

Mono:
*use slightly larger cal (6.5 or 7?)
*less chance of spotting own impact
*possibly slower incapacitation unless aiming for bone
*less chance of fragments in meat
*no toxicity

For me it's coming down to how important is it to be able to spot my own impacts vs the chance that I miss a fragment during butchering and serve it to my wife.

 

[GSPHUNTER]

Not a fragment what so ever. Perfect expansion. Barnes 180 gr. TTSX 300 yards broadside Elk. I like the round.

 

[robby denning]

Quick simple question: Who's bitten into or otherwise found a bullet fragment in their game meat?

If so, can you tell me the shot placement, which cut of meat, and what type of bullet?

TIA

yip, like many times and it seems like most of the time, it's in the ground meat.

I've only shot the non-fragmenting bullets a few times so my problem has been the fragmenters like Speer, Berger, Sierra, etc.

Of course I'd like to say only the rib meat but stuff happens.

 

[HunterGatherer]

Agreed. But, those aren't the only two choices. If it was just factory meat vs leaded game meat, I would choose the leaded game meat.

But there are actually three choices: factory meat vs leaded game meat vs unleaded game meat.

It's just as easy to grab one box of bullets as the other. So, the fact that store bought meat is worse isn't really a factor in choosing a bullet. Unless I'm missing something?

The way I see the choice is:

Lead:
*can use smaller caliber with less recoil (6mm?)
*less recoil = spot own impacts
*quicker incapacitation (depending on placement)
*more chance of fragments in meat for wife to bite
*possibility of chronic exposure effects

Mono:
*use slightly larger cal (6.5 or 7?)
*less chance of spotting own impact
*possibly slower incapacitation unless aiming for bone
*less chance of fragments in meat
*no toxicity

For me it's coming down to how important is it to be able to spot my own impacts vs the chance that I miss a fragment during butchering and serve it to my wife.

I don’t think you necessarily need to shoot a bigger caliber if you choose to go the mono route. My friend and I both got new 6.5prc rifles this year and they both killed elk just fine at 500yds+ with very little recoil. As I mentioned before, neither of us were impressed with the ELDX performance but it was enough to get the job done. We’re in the process of working up mono loads now. I’m going with the Barnes 127 lrx and he’s trying the Hornaday mono.

 

[omicron1792]

In one breath you claim the concern over lead is "big business 'science''" or essentially bulls$@t, and in the other breath you make sweeping generalizations and claims about beef and commercial meat processing being loaded with hormones, drugs, etc. The latter of which is a gross misrepresentation and lack of understanding of actual animal husbandry practices and meat regulatory provisions.

I've done quite a bit of peer-reviewed animal/meat science research in my life, none of which was orchestrated or influenced by "big business." It was just published data from measurable parameters. Results are results, and there's plenty of results out there stating lead accumulation in the human body had detrimental impacts on our health.

You’re correct. Lead is bad.

However, I still haven’t seen the science of hunting and eating meat causing increased lead levels. Would you point me to those studies please

 

[S-3 ranch]

When guiding in Alberta, I had more than a few occasions to witness mono bullets performance on game.
Pencil holing both sides doesn't cut it in my world.
Had to track many an animal shot with them, some miles, some never recovered.
The Outfitter I worked with these days refers you to another Outfitter should you insist on using them.
I am in the same camp.

As for the original question - No.
Recovered during butchering.
Only once did my partner miss one and sent it into the grinder.
New grinder the next day...

Cheers

URBAN MYTH
Penciling hasn’t been a thing since the late 1990’s , every outfitter I know in Africa and Canada, NA , have zero problem to see clients come with mono’s
In Africa it’s encouraged to shoot tough bonded and mono, and discouraged to shoot mushy bullets ( I don’t think RSA cares because they don’t usually have stuff that wants to kill you when you’re bullet fails to kill )

 

[omicron1792]

URBAN MYTH
Penciling hasn’t been a thing since the late 1990’s , every outfitter I know in Africa and Canada, NA , have zero problem to see clients come with mono’s
In Africa it’s encouraged to shoot tough bonded and mono, and discouraged to shoot mushy bullets ( I don’t think RSA cares because they don’t usually have stuff that wants to kill you when you’re bullet fails to kill )

Why has hammer changed their hollow point several times over last few years? Why has CEB changed their Maximus for “better” expansion over the last year?

 

[AnnualRye]

I'm not claiming it's good for you or that there's no limit to how much one can consume before detrimental effects. I'm saying the concern is overblown and encouraged by Big Business "Science".

People think “ I haven’t gotten sick from it” proves that it doesn’t matter what choices we make about what goes into our body.

I don't think that.

I'll bet people would be more healthy eating game with microscopic lead particles than farm raised hormone/drug injected beef without any lead.

You’re correct. Lead is bad.

However, I still haven’t seen the science of hunting and eating meat causing increased lead levels. Would you point me to those studies please

Fire up Google Scholar, maybe enter keywords like "lead consumption and human health" or "lead toxicity and human health" and have yourself a day.

 

[omicron1792]

Fire up Google Scholar, maybe enter keywords like "lead consumption and human health" or "lead toxicity and human health" and have yourself a day.

Again. I fully understand lead being harmful. What I (and you also) don’t know is does using lead bullets on game, then eating the game, cause longterm health issues.

 

[S-3 ranch]

Why has hammer changed their hollow point several times over last few years? Why has CEB changed their Maximus for “better” expansion over the last year?

Hammer and CEB , don’t mushroom, they design for pedal separation.
Barns, north fork , Hornady CX all mushroom with pedals intact

 

[GSPHUNTER]

Fire up Google Scholar, maybe enter keywords like "lead consumption and human health" or "lead toxicity and human health" and have yourself a day.

The science is in, Lead poisoning is real. I hate to think how much lead shot I may have eaten while eating pheasant growing up in So. Wis. I know I stopped mid bite from shot many times. Must not have been enough to do lasting damage, though my wife may disagree. I'm 76 now.

 

[omicron1792]

Hammer and CEB , don’t mushroom, they design for pedal separation.
Barns, north fork , Hornady CX all mushroom with pedals intact

Conceivably it’s easier for something to separate than mushroom. And they have trouble getting them to do that.

Is the fact that monos cause less damage really even in question?

 

[AnnualRye]

If you don’t shoot shoulders this in an incredibly overblown “issue”. Never bitten into a fragment, found a bullet shank trimming steaks before cooking once. Otherwise they all get found during butchering.

Again. I fully understand lead being harmful. What I (and you also) don’t know is does using lead bullets on game, then eating the game, cause longterm health issues.

Not playing this game with you, sir.

 

[IronNoggin]

every outfitter I know in Africa and Canada, NAIs the fact that monos cause less damage really even in question?

For some apparently.

Regardless, i will not use them.
As for that fellow's assertion that "every outfitter I know in Africa and Canada, NA" promotes them, that is a fallacy.
Besides the fellow I mentioned previously, I know several in the Yukon, NWT and BC that think the same as I do.

Cheers

 

[1000yards]

We regularly shoot hogs that have somehow been shot before. Here's one that I shot with a mono and all of the meat looked completely fine in every way. I couldn't see that the scapula had been hit until after it was in the crock pot all day. I probably would have eaten it if it was just me.

 

[HighUintas]

Two things about the linked study earlier.

They didn't mention anything about whether the processors were instructed to ensure that only the meat of their study deer was given back. If the carcass was taken in whole, obviously the processor did the trimming and I would guess they wouldn't be super careful about finding as much lead as possible. The study could have been given back the communal ground meat like so many processors do.

"Extreme distance between fragment clusters in standard radiographs averaged 24 cm (range±SD = 5–43±9 cm), and maximum single fragment separation was 45 cm."

That is not very far if we're talking elk and broadside lung shots. ~10-18". Extreme distance, so maybe 5-10" from bullet path? A broadside lung shots in elk shouldn't put much if any lead in your meat if you don't hit shoulder and leave the rib meat behind.

Also, they didn't share any of the X-ray images in the study.

So, where is the conclusive evidence that you will have lead in your meat no matter how careful you are in processing your own?

 

[SDHNTR]

This site has an unhealthy obsession with “data”. Some things need nothing more than common sense.

Despite what any “data” may say:
Ingesting lead is bad.
At reasonable ranges monos work just fine.
Don’t hunt grizzly bears with a .223.

I don’t need a study or statistics to draw those conclusions.

 

[HunterGatherer]

This site has an unhealthy obsession with “data”. Some things need nothing more than common sense.

Despite what any “data” may say:
Ingesting lead is bad.
At reasonable ranges monos work just fine.
Don’t hunt grizzly bears with a .223.

I don’t need a study or statistics to draw those conclusions.

I like data as much as the next guy but your point is valid. I don’t need to know how much lead I’m getting and how it compares to other populations of people to know that I don’t want to eat it. If others feel the risk is not worth worrying about, that’s fine and maybe they’re actually in the “right” position for their specific situation- how they shoot, how they butcher, etc. I just prefer to not have to worry about it by eliminating lead from the entire process as much as humanly possible.