Fragmenting bullets versus controlled expanding bullets

[Bowfinn]

There must be 100 mentions of how reliable this bullet is at 1,800 fps, so when the very first gel test I’ve ever seen shows two bullets with a complete failure to open up, it makes me wonder what other people are basing their trust on.

I don’t think that clear “ballistic gel” is a proper tissue simulate. Here is a video the vortex has that showed a bullet shot at long range(875 yards) and not expanding with clear gel. When they placed actual 10% gelatin in front it of the clear gel the bullet opened as designed.

If you don’t care to watch the whole video start and 15:00 watch a couple minutes then skip to 23:30.

 

[mt100gr.]

There must be 100 mentions of how reliable this bullet is at 1,800 fps, so when the very first gel test I’ve ever seen shows two bullets with a complete failure to open up, it makes me wonder what other people are basing their trust on.

But one mention from a random youtuber sways you?

Who is that guy?

P.S. I didn't give him a click so I am really asking.

 

[TaperPin]

I don’t think that clear “ballistic gel” is a proper tissue simulate. Here is a video the vortex has that showed a bullet shot at long range(875 yards) and not expanding with clear gel. When they placed actual 10% gelatin in front it of the clear gel the bullet opened as designed.

If you don’t care to watch the whole video start and 15:00 watch a couple minutes then skip to 23:30.

“Yeah but, ballistic gel doesn’t work.”

 

[TaperPin]

But one mention from a random youtuber sways you?

Who is that guy?

P.S. I didn't give him a click so I am really asking.

“Yeah but, his bullets aren’t like everyone else’s bullets.”

 

[hereinaz]

There must be 100 mentions of how reliable this bullet is at 1,800 fps, so when the very first gel test I’ve ever seen shows two bullets with a complete failure to open up, it makes me wonder what other people are basing their trust on.

How many videos have you watched of ballistic gel tests? How many by this guy?

Did you know that what he used is not the calibrated FBI gel?

Will you bet your truck based on that video?

 

[hereinaz]

“Yeah but, ballistic gel doesn’t work.”

You make snarky comments that add nothing. It is childish. Please avoid it on this thread.

Go read the paper that the OP linked to. You’ll see what it takes to maintain real ballistic gel.

That clear stuff is not calibrated ballistic gel. I looked at doing a test once, a real test and found that the clear stuff is not the same as the calibrated stuff the FBI uses.

 

[hereinaz]

I don’t think that clear “ballistic gel” is a proper tissue simulate. Here is a video the vortex has that showed a bullet shot at long range(875 yards) and not expanding with clear gel. When they placed actual 10% gelatin in front it of the clear gel the bullet opened as designed.

If you don’t care to watch the whole video start and 15:00 watch a couple minutes then skip to 23:30.

Interesting, heading to bed but will look tomorrow. Glad you pointed this out.

@TaperPin see if this changes anything for you.

 

[mt100gr.]

“Yeah but, his bullets aren’t like everyone else’s bullets.”

What are you talking about?

 

[The Guide]

Interesting, heading to bed but will look tomorrow. Glad you pointed this out.

@TaperPin see if this changes anything for you.

Vortex put a thin zip lock bag of water in front of the clear gel and got full expansion of the bullet. Bullets need fluid filled media with the correct resistance for hydraulic expansion to happen. If clear gel is too warm it does not have enough resistance to initiate expansion. I'm not sure about that video with the 108 ELDM that did not expand but I know a live animal will initiate expansion so why not use that? Market hog, lamb, or steer would do and can be recycled into dinner.

Jay

 

[Bowfinn]

For anyone who wants to read up on clear vs organic gelatin. I attached a photo of a take away from the document.

https://static.hornady.media/site/hornadyle/files/ballistic-gelatin-comparisons-1-3.pdf

 

[chamois]

Would you bet your truck that it won’t?

The talk was about 88gr ELM-Ms fragmenting at that speed...

Obviously it depends on what they hit, but I will bet my truck that they will not fragment when shooting springbucks standing broadside and not impacting in the hipbone, or knuckle joint at the humerous, or such.

I know from experience they will not fragment even at 2000fps. From experience shooting them and from experience opening them up to look at the wound cavity.

At 2000 fps you get some expansion but no fragmentation. At 1800 not even expansion.

I tested them side by side with the 77gr TMK in a cull hunt i South Africa 2-3 years ago and these were a different story. But I am sure the 88gr ELMs will not.

 

[TaperPin]

Interesting, heading to bed but will look tomorrow. Glad you pointed this out.

@TaperPin see if this changes anything for you.

There seems to be a lot of “Yeah but, …” details to explain problems away. I enjoy seeing what the little match bullet guys are doing - kind of hoping to see Sham Wow caliber performances, but when the ELD-M should simply wipe up the orange juice. . . Wah wah waaah.

 

[fwafwow]

There seems to be a lot of “Yeah but, …” details to explain problems away. I enjoy seeing what the little match bullet guys are doing - kind of hoping to see Sham Wow caliber performances, but when the ELD-M should simply wipe up the orange juice. . . Wah wah waaah.
View attachment 825223

I have no idea what you are saying. Again.

 

[Axlrod]

You make snarky comments that add nothing. It is childish. Please avoid it on this thread.

Go read the paper that the OP linked to. You’ll see what it takes to maintain real ballistic gel.

That clear stuff is not calibrated ballistic gel. I looked at doing a test once, a real test and found that the clear stuff is not the same as the calibrated stuff the FBI uses.

When you feed the troll they become empowered = more drivel posted.
When you ignore the troll you become empowered = troll posts more drivel on a different thread!

 

[TaperPin]

I have no idea what you are saying. Again.

The very first video I look at showing the 1800 fps eldm expansion shows a failure to expand - not very convincing. Imagine if Oxi clean didn’t remove the stain.

 

[fwafwow]

The very first video I look at showing the 1800 fps eldm expansion shows a failure to expand - not very convincing. Imagine if Oxi clean didn’t remove the stain.
View attachment 825234

Imagine if you spoke in cogent sentences. Chuckle. The latter video showed expansion when the 10% gel was placed in front of the clear gel. Imagine if that guy did cocaine. (See, I too can write inane and irrelevant sentences.) Chuckle.

 

[TaperPin]

Imagine if you spoke in cogent sentences. Chuckle. The latter video showed expansion when the 10% gel was placed in front of the clear gel. Imagine if that guy did cocaine. (See, I too can write inane and irrelevant sentences.) Chuckle.

Aww, we’re like buddies now.

 

[TaperPin]

You make snarky comments that add nothing. It is childish. Please avoid it on this thread.

Go read the paper that the OP linked to. You’ll see what it takes to maintain real ballistic gel.

That clear stuff is not calibrated ballistic gel. I looked at doing a test once, a real test and found that the clear stuff is not the same as the calibrated stuff the FBI uses.

Interesting, heading to bed but will look tomorrow. Glad you pointed this out.

@TaperPin see if this changes anything for you.

Showing a block of 10% that hasn’t been calibrated with the bb test doesn’t seem as believable as it would if they followed the actual procedure to properly use it. They are also cold out there - natural 10% gets much harder in cold weather, but nobody seems bothered to mention that. Just like they originally used baggies of water to get the bullet to open up, I get the impression they don’t mind doing what it takes to get the result they were after.

As for the article, the synthetic may in fact be softer, but that article is going on 5 years old, mentions the supplier will be making adjustments to ensure it’s closer to 10% and he will follow up, then in 5 years no follow up article? For something so widely used today, nothing more recent is available?

There are a lot of shooters like me that look for good performance when conditions aren’t ideal, so I don’t feel bad whatsoever pointing out apparent weaknesses in bullet performance when used at extreme edge of acceptable velocity.

 

[hereinaz]

Showing a block of 10% that hasn’t been calibrated with the bb test doesn’t seem as believable as it would if they followed the actual procedure to properly use it. They are also cold out there - natural 10% gets much harder in cold weather, but nobody seems bothered to mention that. Just like they originally used baggies of water to get the bullet to open up, I get the impression they don’t mind doing what it takes to get the result they were after.

As for the article, the synthetic may in fact be softer, but that article is going on 5 years old, mentions the supplier will be making adjustments to ensure it’s closer to 10% and he will follow up, then in 5 years no follow up article? For something so widely used today, nothing more recent is available?

There are a lot of shooters like me that look for good performance when conditions aren’t ideal, so I don’t feel bad whatsoever pointing out apparent weaknesses in bullet performance when used at extreme edge of acceptable velocity.

The clear stuff is a synthetic gel that has no moisture content. FBI gel has to be calibrated to the correct percentage to simulate tissue.

You are speculating on things you don’t know.

You’ll have to accept that I am telling you the truth— that there is a difference—or you’ll go on misunderstanding in technical ignorance.

You have confirmation bias that led you to the conclusion you want. Confronted with contrary facts you say that “they got the results they wanted.”

Wasn’t the bullet in the the video a mono bullet well above factory minimum velocity?

 

[hereinaz]

They are also cold out there - natural 10% gets much harder in cold weather, but nobody seems bothered to mention that.

Tell me what you know about the optimal storage temperature for FBI gel.

Added a link for anyone else to Hornady’s procedure per FBI specifications. Look at the storage temp of ballistic gel for accurate results.

FBI Test Protocol - Hornady Law Enforcement

FBI Test Protocol Bullet Velocity All trajectories and associated velocities are from SAAMI minimum specification test barrels. An Oehler 83 model 35 P with model 55 skyscreens was used for velocity measurements. Bullet velocity was measured...

www.hornadyle.com

Also, there was a paper linked earlier in the thread. It listed the scientists procedures for the temp of gel.