Forest Service HQ Move

[Sccritterkiller]

The list is actually impressively long. Polio and small pox were also eradicated due to government efforts. The interstate system. The Apollo space program. The Marshall plan/ rebuilding Europe following WW2. The Human Gnome Project was funded by the government and led to massive strides in cancer research. The internet began as a DOD project, hydro electric dams….. this list could go on for a long time. Give credit where credit due. The whole “the government screws up everything” is an entirely lazy perspective that falls apart instantly when confronted with facts. Not saying it’s perfect, but many of your health, comforts and conveniences would not exist without government effort. And, really, what’s the viable alternative? An Ayn Rand inspired Technocrat society? Think you’ll get public land in that dynamic?

Health..really?...We got an opioid epidemic brought to us by the FDA and big pharama.
1.7 mi people died last year of preventable disease, the average American is on 4 prescriptions...60% of the population is obese, 80% overweight and we spend more on health than any other country on earth. Have you tried to get a Dr. Appt for anything lately, we are so healthy it takes 6 months.
I not going to bring up the Covid shitshow, a NIH developed virus funded by tax dollars. Some of us know the facts and do give credit where credit is due...
Gulf of Tonkin
Operation Midnight Climax
Operation artichoke
MKUltra
JFK, MLK,
Tuskegee Syphilis Study
I could go on for hours, but yeah the government is great!

 

[Ozarkansas]

Health..really?...We got an opioid epidemic brought to us by the FDA and big pharama.
1.7 mi people died last year of preventable disease, the average American is on 4 prescriptions...60% of the population is obese, 80% overweight and we spend more on health than any other country on earth. Have you tried to get a Dr. Appt for anything lately, we are so healthy it takes 6 months.
I not going to bring up the Covid shitshow, a NIH developed virus funded by tax dollars. Some of us know the facts and do give credit where credit is due...
Gulf of Tonkin
Operation Midnight Climax
Operation artichoke
MKUltra
JFK, MLK,
Tuskegee Syphilis Study
I could go on for hours, but yeah the government is great!

Those are great examples of why you shouldn’t blindly trust the government, not examples of the government being ineffective/unhelpful, which is what the previous comment was discussing.

If anything most of them are examples of the government being too effective at achieving immoral goals, or very helpful to bad people.

 

[Poser]

Health..really?...We got an opioid epidemic brought to us by the FDA and big pharama.
1.7 mi people died last year of preventable disease, the average American is on 4 prescriptions...60% of the population is obese, 80% overweight and we spend more on health than any other country on earth. Have you tried to get a Dr. Appt for anything lately, we are so healthy it takes 6 months.
I not going to bring up the Covid shitshow, a NIH developed virus funded by tax dollars. Some of us know the facts and do give credit where credit is due...
Gulf of Tonkin
Operation Midnight Climax
Operation artichoke
MKUltra
JFK, MLK,
Tuskegee Syphilis Study
I could go on for hours, but yeah the government is great!

I acknowledge the many examples of failure,though Dr appointment timelines have little to nothing to do with government efficiency unless you are going to the VA.
what is non government scenario you desire? A technocrat landscape that is fully privatized?

 

[mt terry d]

Funny how people actually believe the outcome will be any different when the cards of a marked deck are reshuffled.

 

[riversidejeep]

In my little corner of the world I'm surrounded by National Forest and have recreated in it for over 60 years. I can say with certainty that the model they are working with doesn't work. Our regional and local administrative are rabid enviros that want nothing but hands off management. The complete roads system has seen no maintenance for over 35 years and 90% of roads are not passable and just brushed over. Even main arteries are washed out / slides etc. and no one will fix them. No logging, just watch over ripe timber burn to ashes every year while a whole stack of Forest service employees that have gotten their liberal arts degree drive around in new trucks and tape flag noxious weeds and run flagging though the woods for years on end and NOTHING EVER HAPPENS. Just how many botanist does an office need to flag a star thistle? It's time to have a reckoning.

 

[Dos Perros]

Seems like moving HQ and staffing will probably cost a lot of money that I’d much rather see being budgeted to on the ground work. I’d guess this has more to do with upheaval and further crippling the agency than doing something productive

You should see what the same job pays in DC vs SLC.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

I acknowledge the many examples of failure,though Dr appointment timelines have little to nothing to do with government efficiency unless you are going to the VA.
what is non government scenario you desire? A technocrat landscape that is fully privatized?

Dr appt timelines are bad because nobody is healthy, thanks to ag chemicals in your food and neurotoxins in your drinking water. Wash the genetically modified round up ready corn down with a glass of flouride fortified water.
No I don't want a fully privatized system. But let's quit ringing our hands and screaming the sky falling anytime as some a big change is announced...Nobody knows if will be good or bad yet. We need big changes to fix the dysfunction riddle thru all parts of government. Not every idea is gonna be home run, but we got take some swings.

 

[roosterdown]

You should see what the same job pays in DC vs SLC.

Looks like the federal pay scale difference is ~+16-17% in DC vs SLC.

 

[Dos Perros]

Looks like the federal pay scale difference is ~+16-17% in DC vs SLC.

Right, and it'll be even more drastic for contractors, which I would guess are not an insignificant source of salary labor.

 

[Poser]

Dr appt timelines are bad because nobody is healthy, thanks to ag chemicals in your food and neurotoxins in your drinking water. Wash the genetically modified round up ready corn down with a glass of flouride fortified water.
No I don't want a fully privatized system. But let's quit ringing our hands and screaming the sky falling anytime as some a big change is announced...Nobody knows if will be good or bad yet. We need big changes to fix the dysfunction riddle thru all parts of government. Not every idea is gonna be home run, but we got take some swings.

Aka “trust the Trump administration and see how things shake out.”

That’s a swell plan. How’s it working out so far?

 

[CorbLand]

Well Mormon organizations in general are extremely organized and efficient so maybe a fed agency could use a dose of that . However I want Mike Lee’s greasy mitts nowhere near any sort of public land policy decision making.

It would be to peoples advantage if the government ran a little more like the LDS church. People should look into the welfare and humanitarian aid system that they have and what it’s capable of. It’s pretty impressive.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

Aka “trust the Trump administration and see how things shake out.”

That’s a swell plan. How’s it working out so far?

Not necessarily..I dont agree with everything, but I don't let TDS control my opinions either.
Unfortunately the other side could have ran a ham sandwich for president and got better results. They chose not to so its obvious they were happy with the governments status quo dysfunction. The majority of Americans weren't so here we are.

Like most administration's there are things I like and things I don't, which is what happens when you have common sense and moderate views.

 

[Shupe88]

Having lived in the northern Virginia region, I can be fairly confident that very few of the current wash dc NF employees have actually walked in the woods much less hunted, fished, or camped in the woods.

Same down here in swva. They are a waste of tax payers dollars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mtnrunner260]

Didn't the BLM move to Grand Junction during Trumps last term then Biden moved it back to DC?
Seems likely that the same thing could happen here

 

[Jimbuck]

Really not surprised. Utah senator, Mike Lee, tried to slip a provision into the BB Bill last year to begin selling public lands. This "reorganization" is his work around.

 

[UPThunderbolt]

In my little corner of the world I'm surrounded by National Forest and have recreated in it for over 60 years. I can say with certainty that the model they are working with doesn't work. Our regional and local administrative are rabid enviros that want nothing but hands off management. The complete roads system has seen no maintenance for over 35 years and 90% of roads are not passable and just brushed over. Even main arteries are washed out / slides etc. and no one will fix them. No logging, just watch over ripe timber burn to ashes every year while a whole stack of Forest service employees that have gotten their liberal arts degree drive around in new trucks and tape flag noxious weeds and run flagging though the woods for years on end and NOTHING EVER HAPPENS. Just how many botanist does an office need to flag a star thistle? It's time to have a reckoning.

I can’t speak to all the items you list here, but I will suggest there are some hidden factors that most folks don’t recognize. I’ll touch on one that I’ve personally encountered. Before retiring, I was a Region Wildlife Supervisor for a State agency. I had two National Forests within my region. Both had supervisors with hunting backgrounds. The Sup. for one was young and aggressive. He was willing to push the envelope a little to get the job done. We developed four different State/NF collaborative habitat management partnerships for ruffed grouse, woodcock, turkey, and deer. The second Supervisor was older and more cautious and had inherited some unique financial issues when she took over the Forest. Her ability to develop cooperative projects was limited. There was, however, one issue that cut the legs out from under both of these supervisors: Wild Fire Supression Funding! At least at that time, Congress did not allocate sufficient funds for dealing with the wild fires, primarily in the western Forests. The Forest Supervisors would develop a work plan/associated budget and get them approved, only to see 60% of those funds almost immediately diverted to fighting western forest fires. This was in the Upper Midwest and it is my understanding that every Forest in the Nation went through a similar scenario. The obvious results were that timber did not get harvested, habitat improvement projects were neglected, and road repairs were put on the back burner.

I suspect, that if you are recreating in a Forest in which projects are not getting done, it has as much to do with congressional appropriations and wild fire related budget diversions as it does with Staff attitudes.