Fair Chase

[CoMulies]

Robby had a great Rokcast episode recently with Brandon Diamond, an Area Wildlife Manager in Gunnison Basin area in CO. As a resident, this one was of particular interest. At one point the conversation got to the topic of technology and the detrimental impact it’s had on fair chase and age class of deer, with hunters more able than ever to spot game at far distances, rip a 4 wheeler over to it on access roads, and then drop an animal with a 500+ yard shot. Brandon flat out said he cannot guarantee management of quality animals on the landscape in this scenario.

I’ve thought about this myself in the past, but it really raises the question of what is fair chase, and whether this model of hunting is actually sustainable going into the future. I for one have always been against the idea of 4 wheelers / any motor vehicle access as it really shrinks the landscape, and also ruins the experience for others.

So I’ll piggyback off of Robby’s thoughts on this as I agree that hard, unpopular conversations need to be had and I welcome everyone’s thoughts on this: Does hunting need to get harder again?

 

[ddowning]

I would say whole-heartedly that atvs need to get the heck out of hunting. I have not hunted the west, but my brother-in-law lives in CO and loves to ride atvs in the mountains. I can only imagine the difference atv access has made to areas that were basically devoid of humans before.

People are lazy. I live in Iowa. It is basically divided into 1 mile sections by roads. In some places, water makes it impractical to do so and you end up with sections that are larger. The biggest section I have personally been in was 2 miles by 3 miles. People are so lazy they would not even walk to the middle of a 1 mile section to hunt. If a guy could gain access to a big piece with no roads, it didn't matter if 10 guys had permission, no one was getting more than a half mile from the roads. Now, with everyone owning an atv or utv, people will drive all the way through this stuff just for the hell of it.

The ground adjacent to my ground has switched generations. It was very good hunting prior to the next generation moving into the house. Now they ride atvs everyday. It has obviously negatively effected my ground as well as theirs. My neighbors have told me they have asked permission to hunt on all of them because they have ruined the hunting in their own back yard, which used to be some of the best around.

I can only imagine the effects of all that access to vast expanses of ground in the west. Ground that barely saw a human a few short decades ago is likely now littered with people. I'm all for that if all of those people worked hard to get in there, but riding an atv through everyone else's hunt rubs me the wrong way. Obviously, on private ground it is their right to do whatever they choose. I would not want someone telling me what to do on my own land. However, when we start talking about public use of land, it makes way more sense to designate some as atv accessible and most as not, so as the people that need the land to remain wild for their use case have a place to go, and the people that just want to ride their atv also have a place to go.

 

[CoMulies]

I think that’s really the crux of the issue. Most people want to be able to kill big bucks the easiest way possible. It sucks to have to climb a mountain and bust through brush and deadfall to get there when you can ride an access road up and shoot that buck from 600 yards across a canyon.
Unfortunately with more and more people encroaching into wildlife habitat, and more people than ever wanting to hunt the west, I think the resources simply cannot be sustained like this.

 

[COelk89]

I have not caught the podcast but I am kind of confused by your premise. You seem to lay out a scenario in my mind that actually shows how technology enables the hunter to be more discerning in what they choose to harvest. I am not sure how that would lead the biologist to not be able to guarantee "quality" (whether that is mature animals or opportunity to harvest. Most of the people I encounter are not using their 4-wheeler or UTV in the method you describe, however. The people I encounter would be loathe to get off the seat of their UTV and are content to rip around the roads all day every day during hunting season, apparently in the hopes of seeing something they might get a shot at...

I have much bigger issues with UTV's in the summer and their impact to critters to be honest, the UTV road hunters are really only hurting themselves. The UTV trains that head to the mountains in the summer during calving and fawning season are a big problem, especially when the forest service does not secure gates appropriately that are by law supposed to be closed to UTV access during calving season.

regarding shooting stuff at 500 yards or whatever it may be, everyone has different capabilities and it is the individuals responsibility to understand their capabilities and hunt accordingly. All I have to say is this...I don't care what distance it is whether 100 yards or 1000, you had better be checking for blood after the shot or you are a bona fide POS. If you are not willing to walk the distance you are shooting to check for blood, you have no business shooting that far. Too many people watching youtube just expect a deer or elk to drop right there, it almost never happens in reality.

 

[CoMulies]

I have not caught the podcast but I am kind of confused by your premise. You seem to lay out a scenario in my mind that actually shows how technology enables the hunter to be more discerning in what they choose to harvest. I am not sure how that would lead the biologist to not be able to guarantee "quality" (whether that is mature animals or opportunity to harvest. Most of the people I encounter are not using their 4-wheeler or UTV in the method you describe, however. The people I encounter would be loathe to get off the seat of their UTV and are content to rip around the roads all day every day during hunting season, apparently in the hopes of seeing something they might get a shot at...

I have much bigger issues with UTV's in the summer and their impact to critters to be honest, the UTV road hunters are really only hurting themselves. The UTV trains that head to the mountains in the summer during calving and fawning season are a big problem, especially when the forest service does not secure gates appropriately that are by law supposed to be closed to UTV access during calving season.

regarding shooting stuff at 500 yards or whatever it may be, everyone has different capabilities and it is the individuals responsibility to understand their capabilities and hunt accordingly. All I have to say is this...I don't care what distance it is whether 100 yards or 1000, you had better be checking for blood after the shot or you are a bona fide POS. If you are not willing to walk the distance you are shooting to check for blood, you have no business shooting that far. Too many people watching youtube just expect a deer or elk to drop right there, it almost never happens in reality.

Ability to access more land with atv where animals could previously seek refuge, move around it much quicker, spot animals at further distances, and kill them at longer distances 100% tips the balance in favor of the hunter. He was saying this allows them to harvest more mature animals than ever before.
Regarding the shooting distances, you don’t think the ability to shoot farther accurately has lead to an increased take of animals / older age class animals?

 

[COelk89]

Ability to access more land with atv where animals could previously seek refuge, move around it much quicker, spot animals at further distances, and kill them at longer distances 100% tips the balance in favor of the hunter. Regarding the shooting distances, you don’t think the ability to shoot farther accurately has lead to an increased take of animals / older age class animals?

I agree, it tips the balance in favor of the hunter, but I am confused by your argument or maybe there are just a couple of arguments. In my mind, the primary negative impact on wildlife due to ATV's and access is not more mature animals being killed, it is the disturbance to mothers and young they cause due to noise causing them to change their movement and patterns. It is the impact to the reproductive productivity. You could remove the top half of the age class of bucks from a deer population and a few years later that age class will be back in a few years. I just don't see how the things you point to could lead to "fewer" old age class animals because the whole idea of hunting as conservation is to remove the "mature" animals, allowing the younger age-classes room to mature themselves.

In my mind, technology and equipment advances offer hunters today the best opportunity to harvest a mature animal, thereby hopefully allowing the younger age classes to rise up. In the past especially going back to the 70's or earlier I think most hunters shot the first thing they legally could with the equipment they had.

I agree that a higher proportion of harvests today could hypothetically be of older age class deer whether from UTVs or shooting far, however I just don't think it matters. Their genes don't change from year 1 to year 7. The 1 year old age class had the same genetic makeup as the 7 year old age class. You are not losing anything if you harvest a higher proportion of the top age class. Look at the managed game ranches in Texas that are run like an agricultural operation...they harvest the mature animals and a few cull bucks and does every year, and you don't see antler quality drop off. The name of the game is replacement, as long as there are younger age classes to replace the older ones...shoot away.

 

[magnum]

Great discussion post. I can’t wait to listen to the podcast. I am a hunter who is willing to incur stricter limitations on general season hunting technology and reduced hunter success in exchange for increased opportunity.

 

[CoMulies]

I agree, it tips the balance in favor of the hunter, but I am confused by your argument or maybe there are just a couple of arguments. In my mind, the primary negative impact on wildlife due to ATV's and access is not more mature animals being killed, it is the disturbance to mothers and young they cause due to noise causing them to change their movement and patterns. It is the impact to the reproductive productivity. You could remove the top half of the age class of bucks from a deer population and a few years later that age class will be back in a few years. I just don't see how the things you point to could lead to "fewer" old age class animals because the whole idea of hunting as conservation is to remove the "mature" animals, allowing the younger age-classes room to mature themselves.

In my mind, technology and equipment advances offer hunters today the best opportunity to harvest a mature animal, thereby hopefully allowing the younger age classes to rise up. In the past especially going back to the 70's or earlier I think most hunters shot the first thing they legally could with the equipment they had.

I agree that a higher proportion of harvests today could hypothetically be of older age class deer whether from UTVs or shooting far, however I just don't think it matters. Their genes don't change from year 1 to year 7. The 1 year old age class had the same genetic makeup as the 7 year old age class. You are not losing anything if you harvest a higher proportion of the top age class. Look at the managed game ranches in Texas that are run like an agricultural operation...they harvest the mature animals and a few cull bucks and does every year, and you don't see antler quality drop off. The name of the game is replacement, as long as there are younger age classes to replace the older ones...shoot away.

Agree with your point on the atv’s causing disturbance to reproductive success. But it also generally just allows people to access deeper land, and move around it more quickly. I’d argue that increases your ability to be successful, why else would people use them if not. And of course we all want to be successful, but we may have reached a point where a balance needs to be struck.

Also agree that technology definitely cuts both ways. I like that it allows people to be more precise in their shooting for example, which generally allows for cleaner/more ethical kills. Of course ethics are different for everyone, but it just doesn’t sit all that well with me when I see guys taking elk etc. at 800+ yards. Admittedly I know this is rare, and theres not much that can be said if a guy is practiced enough where they can cleanly take animals at those distances. But I digress.

I understand your point on replacement, it’s just that on the ground here in CO, there’s been a fairly noticeable decline in the age class of mule deer. Brandon mentioned it, Robby had heard this from people, and I’ve heard/been seeing it myself as well.

 

[COelk89]

Agree with your point on the atv’s causing disturbance to reproductive success. But it also generally just allows people to access deeper land, and move around it more quickly. I’d argue that increases your ability to be successful, why else would people use them if not. And of course we all want to be successful, but we may have reached a point where a balance needs to be struck.

Also agree that technology definitely cuts both ways. I like that it allows people to be more precise in their shooting for example, which generally allows for cleaner/more ethical kills. Of course ethics are different for everyone, but it just doesn’t sit all that well with me when I see guys taking elk etc. at 800+ yards. Admittedly I know this is rare, and theres not much that can be said if a guy is practiced enough where they can cleanly take animals at those distances. But I digress.

I understand your point on replacement, it’s just that on the ground here in CO, there’s been a fairly noticeable decline in the age class of mule deer. Brandon mentioned it, Robby had heard this from people, and I’ve heard/been seeing it myself as well.

I think we are on the same page on a lot of these issues. Personally I don't like ATVs and I don't like shooting past 300 yards. My get around rig is a 1979 Jeep CJ5. Nothing chaps my ass more than the ATV/UTV only trails...just make them a hiking trail.

What I will say is the alternative to start banning certain equipment may not be much better. You live in Colorado so you know how treacherous to downright deadly some of these roads can get. UTV/ATV access may help add some level of safety when a highway vehicle is not and they can also help distribute hunters more evenly. Also regarding Colorado, I would argue that the recent season structure has more to do with removing older age class bucks which BTW was a stated goal of CPW so for the CPW guest to be pointing elsewhere is a bit confusing.

I get that your title was called fair chase but I just don't think it is that simple with all of the variables to consider. Is it fair chase if I shoot a buck with my grandfathers M1 Garand? I bet the buck wouldn't think so. Is it fair chase if I spot a buck with a $5k spotter and go kill him with a bow? Bottom line, the reason there are less mature bucks is because there are less deer overall because the habitat is not as healthy as it once was. Mule deer are a mid successional species meaning they thrive in plant communities that have a high diversity of plants. Most everywhere I go I see late successional habitat: dense coniferous forest (doug-fir or PJ), decadent sagebrush or oak brush, aspen with no regen, etc. Even worse is habitat that no longer resembles a native assemblage such as cheatgrass invasion. My point is hunters don't really matter, they make up only a percentage of overall mortality and the percentage that are harvesting a mature buck purely due to their equipment and tactics that would not otherwise are even smaller.

 

[COelk89]

I wish I could catch the podcast, I am in podcast purgatory after Google podcast went away. Currently using Amazon but it does not have the Rokast

 

[realunlucky]

I wish I could catch the podcast, I am in podcast purgatory after Google podcast went away. Currently using Amazon but it does not have the Rokast

Gunnison Mule Deer and Beyond with Brandon Diamond

Robby hosts Brandon Diamond on today's Rokcast. They talk about the current over-winter survival for the Gunnison Mule Deer, proposed season changes & more.

www.rokslide.com

You can listen from your browser

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

 

[TheTone]

At some point something has to give. Deer, elk, whatever aren’t figuring out new ways to hide or evade us but we are continually getting better and better at killing them. The herds can only take some much harvest. We either lose season length, tag numbers or technology is the way I see things going.

 

[MTtrout]

Technology and hunting is a different discussion than motorized vehicle access in my opinion. Somebody illegally taking a motorized vehicle off a designated trail to better suit their own agenda is immoral. I’ve seen it more on BLM land due to terrain availability than FS land. One of the biggest problems of illegal off trail usage is that out west the top soil is often thin with a short growing season. It doesn’t take long driving on that new path to create a “trail”. The next person comes along and thinks it’s a legitimate trail.

Legal motorized vehicles on non-state owned public land is a federal issue. A state bio has limited control over that variable. If gating off more roads for non-motorized use is the concern then reaching out to the federal land managers would be the approach to take.

 

[Wrench]

Animals succeed based on carrying capacity and predation.

We build shopping malls on winter range. We have videos showing us what to look for, sound like and everything in between. We have sites like this where 1000's of years of experience are shared.......in 1986 if you didn't learn it from your dad or Jim Zumbo....you didn't know.

And now we'll sut here and discuss conservation as a single user group talking about how horrible it is for another group to recreate in their genre.

"If the atvs weren't there, we'd have more game to hunt.".....said the hunter.

"If the hunters didn't kill so many animals and disturb them in their winter and calving range to find some dumb antlers, we could still recreate."......said the next user group.


Slippery slope here. The groups with the loudest voices will be heard, and we ain't it.

 

[CMF]

The herds can only take some much harvest. We either lose season length, tag numbers or technology is the way I see things going.

I think that sums it up perfectly. Everyone's going to be at a different point on each of those spectrums.

I favor more tags, less technology. Less atv/road access, less gun hunt days.

 

[COelk89]

Some of your guys position seems to indicate you think less harvest would have led to less winter kill last year. Harvest is not the issue. It is habitat and likely some predator issues. If it was harvest you'd see units shut down to hunting and quotas limited far more than they are. Most of you sound like you want more opportunity to hunt, but more opportunity is often not the recipe for growing mature deer.

 

[HiMtnHntr]

Depends on the area but in general there are several ways to possibly increase the quality of the experience out there (which is subjective):

1. Limit access (ie: vehicles)
2. Limit weapon (ie: archery or muzz)
3. Limit tags (popular method, two above methods may help to increase tags while maintaining quality)
4. Increase game populations - items 1,2,5 may help with this)
5. Improve habitat (esp winter range)
6. Limit tech (ie: rangefinders and game cams)

Nobody likes more rules, but a few of the above could work to improve quality while also allowing for more opportunity.

My best experiences have been in areas with difficult access, good habitat, good game populations, and expansive roadless areas….

 

[sndmn11]

Since this CPW employee works Gunnison, I will throw out the concept that winter feeding contributes to fragile herds and conditions animals to believe people might not be an enemy.


I think it's a part of an honest conversation regarding fair chase and herd health.

 

[TaperPin]

Fair chase went out the window as soon as the technology boom and social media happened. Go to FB and there will be a group specifically for your hunt area and you can learn the exact spot Joe Blow’s uncle kills his deer every year - privately these same guys are sharing where to troll the winter range. There are more and better trail cams everywhere. We have super detailed satellite photos and there are more and more drone videos popping up - we are a few short years away from the most successful hunters knowing what deer and what ridge the deer is on without setting foot before the season. Outfitters have flown hunt areas since the plane was invented - the new generation of big drones can fly programmed paths with programmed camera angles, quickly scanning all the known bedding areas on a ridge, faster than it takes to write this. Traditional hunters hate it, but lawmakers are so far behind the curve and the young hunters are all for the latest crowd sourced information and would gladly pay the premium when OnX comes out with a premium package guaranteeing a buck.

I’d love it if all electronics were outlawed in the field, but too many cry babies would throw a sht fit.

 

[JohnJohnson]

For the long range hunting portion of that I'm not sure whether it matches with reality. There's a recent thread on success rates by weapon choice over the years for Idaho elk hunters. Rifle success is basically unchanged during the rifle technology revolution of the past decade. It seems like an overblown fearmongering line of thinking that people get from consuming too much social media from guys who hunt for a living. It's not a big trend in the general hunting population (yet).

Success rate by weapon choice as a function of advancing technology

I came across this graph while reading through some Idaho elk management information. The effects of advancing technology on harvest success has been debated in the past but this is the first time I've seen a graph that illustrates how this has changed over time. I did some quick looking at...

rokslide.com

But I guess it's much less captivating to talk about harsh winters and cheat grass.