Ethical Shots - just because your buddy can does mean you shouldn't say something

[Rich M]

I certainly don’t. Did you see any comments from me in this thread beside the one quoting you?
I’ll be an ass all day long to the ignorant!
It’s hunting bud and happens with all weapon types. I strive for the cleanest and fastest kill as possible..always! I don’t doubt for a second that you and your yahoo buds wound a bunch of elk with bows.

My friends make me hunt archery and I hate it...boohoooo.

I'm deaf - born that way - been deer hunting since 1978 anyway. Archery and rifle.

I've shot 6 bucks with archery over 25 years or so of every season kind of hunting and only found 3 so I "quit" unless I get stuck with a quota hunt where I have to use it or go a year without hunting (usually only get drawn for a single 3-day hunt per year down here due to the 21 million people in this state). Just something about being spitting distance from animals and the deaf guy makes some unknown noise drawing his bow, the deer perk up and then jump when the string twangs.

Boohoo for sure.

I'd feel better if they let me use a crossbow but according to the state, I don't have a "real" handicap that'll allow for a crossbow permit. My rifle success has thankfully been better - somewhere around 85 deer & antelope have been shot and retrieved. No losses thus far. We'll find out about elk in a couple of weeks.

Ignorant, hardly.

I did a quick google for archery wounding/loss rates and it ranged between 18% to 54% based on a couple diff studies. Deer & Deer hunting publication puts is between 13% and 50% based on the studies they reviewed.

Looked for rifle wounding scientific papers and found an older one that said archery wounds 1.5 times more animals than rifle.

Not a lot of easily found data sources. Does anyone have any real data? Does Colorado or any of the other states have an estimate of killed but not recovered for diff seasons?

 

[dirt_diver]

I figure ethical shots and such are so highly subjective and personal that to try to delve into any kind of argument over who’s “right” is usually arbitrary.
IMO

 

[BullElk]

I did a quick google for archery wounding/loss rates and it ranged between 18% to 54% based on a couple diff studies. Deer & Deer hunting publication puts is between 13% and 50% based on the studies they reviewed.

you utilized google for archery losses? you made it seem like you had some firsthand knowledge of so many elk being lost during archery due to bad shots....try again. a few lost elk posts on rokslide dont warrant your archery hunter comment. especially not when theres a half million people running around the rockies every fall chasing them. please share some pics of all the carcasses you run across with arrows sticking out of them from your colorado trip.

 

[Rich M]

I give it up.

I made it sound like archery guys wound & lose more animals than rifle guys. You added the rest.

Good season to you.

 

[treillw]

My buddy is on the US world benchrest team, sponsored by Berger, sponsered by nightforce, sponsored by Savage, shoots 2000 and 3000 yards, can shoot 1" 10 shot groups at 400 yards, etc. I'd say he has a pretty damn good resume. The farthest he will shoot at an elk, if hes confident in the wind, is 700 yards.

Sure makes me think about how far I should be shooting. Especially after a few days practicing in the field with windy conditions.

 

[JG358]

What is your distance limit you would let a buddy shoot before saying something?

Not my job to know my buddies limits.... its my job to know mine. That said, sometimes shit goes sideways.... In my experience, range is rarely the end issue.

 

[Elker]

Not my job to know my buddies limits.... its my job to know mine. That said, sometimes shit goes sideways.... In my experience, range is rarely the end issue.

Good point on range not always the key factor in shoot/don't shoot decision, or in game recovery. I can think of two of my hunts that ended up being very up close and personal but did not offer a clean enough shot. One had a cow tuck right behind behind a great bull. I had a buddy 20 yards to my side, but could not see the cow behind the bull, and yelled shoot it! as they both walked out of the shot window. That one haunts me for not taking a neck or head shot. Only had a split second to decide.

 

[Natevon04]

It seems all these elk you speak of were killed, so maybe it’s more that the hunters didn’t do their job well on the tracking. I don’t know the circumstances of the elk you are talking about though.

I also think it is up to my buddy to know his limits and if they feel good about their rest and shot I say send it.

Just because it died at some point in the next 2 days doesn’t mean it was a good or ethical shot. You can shoot out to 1000 yds in lot of places here in north Idaho but the elk only have to run 40 yds and their into 5 square miles of thick timber and alders. You need a blood trail, and somebody’s 1000’ yd gut shot isn’t usually gonna hack it.


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[RosinBag]

I say you can hunt your way and I will hunt mine. But if I need to I will send them at a 1000 and my gun hasn’t let me down yet.

 

[Shrek]

What is your distance limit you would let a buddy shoot before saying something?
Lets just say your hunting buddy has a big gun and you've seen him hit a gongs out better than 800 yards. You've got a great elk a long poke out there and he wants to take it. Do you have a hard limit before you speak up... regardless of conditions?
Just a question, given I heard of 3 dead elk found this week from 3 different people. All rifle shot, all at least one week dead. Got me thinking with all the new rifles everyone seems to have now on their packs that "can shoot out to 1000 yards no problem". How many elk are hit with a lot less muzzle velocity/energy than they should be for bullet optimal performance.
It's one thing to know your limits... but what is your obligation when a really good friend is pushing his/hers?

If you’re with me and you get diarrhea of the mouth going on about my choices and ethics I’ll tell you to GFY and we’ll never speak on friendly terms again.

 

[Natevon04]

I suppose if your walking all the way across that canyon to check for blood every time your sending those 1000’ yd shots then more power to ya.


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[hunter4life]

Push the stalk, not the shot.

I don't care if you can shoot 5" groups at 1000 yards, in my mind it is an unethical shot. The animal has essentially no chance of detecting you at that range. Nobody here is hunting because they are hungry and it is the only way to feed their family. It is a hell of a lot cheaper to buy some chicken or beef than to buy a long range rifle and become proficient with it. This is "sport" hunting and thus ethics come into play. My personal limit is about 400 yards with a rifle, 200 with a muzzleloader and 50 with a bow. If at all possible I prefer to get even closer. Planning and executing a stalk is a hell of a lot more fun to me than dialing in the range and letting one fly.

Now, if you are killing an invasive species in a planned eradication effort or doing pest control for a farmer/rancher, then it is a different situation and shoot at whatever range you can make a clean kill. This is a totally different scenario and is not a "sport" hunting situation.

I pretty much only hunt with my family. Many years ago I learned that hunting with friends is a good way to end a friendship.

As to the prior posts on wounding loss with archery vs. rifle on elk. I have not read any scientific studies, but I have lived and hunted elk country my whole life and know many outfitters that kill more elk per year than most of us will in a lifetime. The wounding loss in archery elk hunting is way, way higher than with a rifle.

Now flame on.

 

[PathFinder]

Push the stalk, not the shot.

I don't care if you can shoot 5" groups at 1000 yards, in my mind it is an unethical shot. The animal has essentially no chance of detecting you at that range. Nobody here is hunting because they are hungry and it is the only way to feed their family. It is a hell of a lot cheaper to buy some chicken or beef than to buy a long range rifle and become proficient with it. This is "sport" hunting and thus ethics come into play. My personal limit is about 400 yards with a rifle, 200 with a muzzleloader and 50 with a bow. If at all possible I prefer to get even closer. Planning and executing a stalk is a hell of a lot more fun to me than dialing in the range and letting one fly.

Now, if you are killing an invasive species in a planned eradication effort or doing pest control for a farmer/rancher, then it is a different situation and shoot at whatever range you can make a clean kill. This is a totally different scenario and is not a "sport" hunting situation.

I pretty much only hunt with my family. Many years ago I learned that hunting with friends is a good way to end a friendship.

As to the prior posts on wounding loss with archery vs. rifle on elk. I have not read any scientific studies, but I have lived and hunted elk country my whole life and know many outfitters that kill more elk per year than most of us will in a lifetime. The wounding loss in archery elk hunting is way, way higher than with a rifle.

Now flame on.

As far as detection range and ethics go, how likely is an animal to detect you at 400 yards? If an individual is going to set an ethical max range based on an animal's detection ability, they're a dedicated trad archery guy or they're a hypocrite.
To me, detection range has nothing to do with ethics. Humans kill with technology or they don't kill at all. We just don't have the physical ability to kill without creating some sort of weapon. It's only natural for those weapons to progress and become more effective. How we offset that with tag numbers, etc is another story.

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[Marble]

I don't tell people what they should and shouldn't do. If my hunting partner wants to take a shot at something really far away. I would not care at all.

The ethical distance of any shot depends on too many things to answer. Too many variables.

 

[Marble]

So many judgy people here.

 

[AaronMColeman]

Anecdotal evidence, but I don't see how archery can't lead to more loss and more wounded animals. I rushed a shot and hit a poor elk in the shoulder. Arrow went in 4" and fell out. I *think* he was ok, just banged up, but I can't be 100% sure.

Friends have found quite a few broadheads in elk they've shot the next year.

Also, most guys are better with a rifle at 200-300 yards than they are with a bow at 30-40 yards.

I'm all for archery hunting, I'll keep doing it every season. I just don't think there is much of an argument that archery elk hunting typically leads to more loss and injury. But, again, it's all academic because I don't think most of us have an issue with archery.

As to long range hunting, if it seems too far, it probably is. Go range 1000 yards, I'll bet there are very few of us who think we can really hit an elk consistently from that range under ANY conditions. If you think you can, go for it...I don't know anyone else's limits. I won't judge, I just know less than 1% of hunters can shoot over 700 yards consistently. It's up to you though, I won't say anything.

 

[WCB]

I trust the guys I hunt with and know they only take shots they truly know they can make. I also have hunted with them enough that honestly its not even a question...we know what shot the others can make and it never comes up that they would "try" a shot. Doesn't matter what animal or size of animal. Does that mean that bad things may not happen and we end up tracking no. NO SHOT is 100% no matter the yardage.

With that said I would have no problem telling someone that I don't agree with them taking a shot...did it many times guiding and would do it to friends or relatives if needed. In the end it is their decision not mine.
I also wouldn't hunt with someone that just flings lead anyways.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

The answer to this is going to depend on past experiences with the buddy. If he's got a clean slate I'm not saying anything, it's his shot to decide on. If I've had to track a wounded animal with him before then I'm speaking up but circumstances will lead to a wide variance of deciding factors, it's not all just about distance.

 

[hobbes]

I rarely hunt with buddies. (Makes packing meat hell.) I do occasionally hunt with my kids (more like young adults now) or wife, so I call all the shots. I'd approve one out of my bunch to shoot farther than the rest, but that distance would be based off conditions and is probably nowhere near what some folks are willing to shoot.