Engineering a Better Broadhead for Elk

[Trial153]

comparing a black hornet to these heads is ridiculous, it’s Pretty much a disqualifying statement.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Based on my limited knowledge on manufacturing tolerances, materials, and R&D, I’d say these heads are way under priced or the money, I’m actually surprised they’re priced this low.

So when’s the 6 blade case available for order? I’ll definitely grab that.

 

[Coveyleader]

To each there own, and I get what swede is saying and can relate. It's the trend these days. Produce something say it's the cats meow and price it through the roof. From there let the "pro staff pimp it out" marketing at its finest.

 

[KHNC]

I tested these heads a year ago. I even told the company I would not switch to these heads long term, but would test and honestly review them. I did penetration, flight, sharpness retention, accuracy, and noise testing. The only thing I could find with these heads was a little flight noise. From there I did more side by side with other heads, in varying conditions, locations, and circumstances. In the end I have switched to the Iron Will head. From my testing and hunting experience with them, I do not see the slight flight noise as being an issue. It was nice to see Iron Will make the jump to the solid blade to help reduce that issue to those who didn't like it. My son and I had great success with the vented head over the last year harvesting multiple deer, bear, elk, and turkeys. Looking forward to another great year with them.

i can tell you first hand that flight noise WILL make a difference! I am not saying these are too loud, as i have not used them. However, after shooting many animals with the old CX F-15 heads, I KNOW that deer will react to the sound of these broadheads in flight. It was most noticable when i missed the first booner i ever shot at ,in Nebraska, back in 2012. He dropped over a foot at 33 yards. Slow Motion video showed i had even aimed low on the shot. This was not an isolated incident. Looked over many video clips and noticed a pattern with these heads. Went back to non-vented heads and over the next two seasons i noticed a difference in the other heads. No doubt in my mind that will not use a vented head again. I would go with the solids. This looks like a well engineered head in my opinion.

 

[EsteemGrinders]

Yah I don't think that is what is going on at IronWill. He has sent out heads for testing to guys like Brian and Arron but neither of these guys our Prostaff for IronWill. From the feedback of Arron's review of the Original vented head, the solid/non vented version was made.
I suggest guys listen to the Podcast. At least it for me it was very easy to hear and see what kind of guy Bill V is. A humble well spoken good old fashion American! From what I gathered from the Podcast is Bill is Happy letting the heads sell them self and educating the customer a bit.

 

[les welch]

i can tell you first hand that flight noise WILL make a difference! I am not saying these are too loud, as i have not used them. However, after shooting many animals with the old CX F-15 heads, I KNOW that deer will react to the sound of these broadheads in flight. It was most noticable when i missed the first booner i ever shot at ,in Nebraska, back in 2012. He dropped over a foot at 33 yards. Slow Motion video showed i had even aimed low on the shot. This was not an isolated incident. Looked over many video clips and noticed a pattern with these heads. Went back to non-vented heads and over the next two seasons i noticed a difference in the other heads. No doubt in my mind that will not use a vented head again. I would go with the solids. This looks like a well engineered head in my opinion.

Your post sums up exactly the problem. If that animal "dropped over a foot at 33 yards" he was reacting to the sound of the bow, NOT the sound of the broadhead. That makes sense, but you can't blame that on the broadhead. Listen to the research that was done on the noise testing of these heads and it will make sense.

 

[Swede]

I edited my post above as correctly pointed out, the Black Hornet has an aluminum ferrule. I compared Bill's new broadhead with it as they look so similar.
I am just getting used to $40 for a three pack of broadheads. It was just a short time ago I could buy a six pack of broadheads for under $20. My main point is that I have shot broadheads with aluminum, stainless steel, carbon steel and titanium ferrules. They all do the job if you hit the right spot. I have not shot Black Hornets.
Someone above mentioned killing a doe by shooting through the knuckle. I am guessing that means through the heavy bone in the shoulder. No broadhead is going to give good penetration if you hit heavy bone. The vital area on an animal won't expand or contract based on broadhead choice. Thinking you can kill an elk going through heavy bone is a bad idea regardless of what broadhead you shoot. You can improve penetration some by increasing the bow poundage or the arrow weight.
I have enjoyed the discussion and debate.

 

[Coveyleader]

Yah I don't think that is what is going on at IronWill. He has sent out heads for testing to guys like Brian and Arron but neither of these guys our Prostaff for IronWill. From the feedback of Arron's review of the Original vented head, the solid/non vented version was made.

Sorry, You can see on other sites where a paid sponsorship is needed where the same guys pushing this product were walking on eggshells. Heck, they were even called out on it.

 

[Sharp Things]

I considered the Iron Will for my Water Buffalo hunt but they did not offer a single bevel so I went with cutthroats instead. Still the Iron will looks like a great head with awesome steel. Too many people think steel is steel. As a custom knife maker, I can appreciate what he put into his heads. The Cutthroats are RC55 and hold a great edge. I think the Iron Will are fairly priced.

 

[elkyinzer]

Your post sums up exactly the problem. If that animal "dropped over a foot at 33 yards" he was reacting to the sound of the bow, NOT the sound of the broadhead. That makes sense, but you can't blame that on the broadhead. Listen to the research that was done on the noise testing of these heads and it will make sense.

Not trying to be overly critical but could you point us to said "noise testing"?

I've found from [safely] standing downrange while someone shoots a broadhead that an animal is far more likely to react to a hissing projectile than a bow going off due to the doppler effect. It's just common sense, and the reason I am switching from vented heads to non-vented this year.

 

[elkyinzer]

Why engineer a 2 blade broadhead with bleeders vs. a 3 blade? Any intentions on making a 3 blade broadhead in the future?

 

[Boxerboxer]

Not trying to be overly critical but could you point us to said "noise testing"?

I've found from [safely] standing downrange while someone shoots a broadhead that an animal is far more likely to react to a hissing projectile than a bow going off due to the doppler effect. It's just common sense, and the reason I am switching from vented heads to non-vented this year.

You standing down range as an arrow goes by and arbitrarily deciding which sound an elk will react doesn’t sound like “common sense” to me. The string noise is a quick impulse and starts right at the shot release. On the other hand the broad head noise is a steady state oscillation that (relatively speaking) will increase gradually in volume as it nears the elk. The closer it gets, the less time the animal has to react to it. Common sense says the broad head would have to get pretty close to the elk to get as loud as the string noise at which point it’s already game over unless the elk reacted to the string previously. Then again this is all just Monday morning (afternoon?) quarterbacks taking wild ass guesses


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[bwlacy]

I edited my post above as correctly pointed out, the Black Hornet has an aluminum ferrule. I compared Bill's new broadhead with it as they look so similar.
I am just getting used to $40 for a three pack of broadheads. It was just a short time ago I could buy a six pack of broadheads for under $20. My main point is that I have shot broadheads with aluminum, stainless steel, carbon steel and titanium ferrules. They all do the job if you hit the right spot. I have not shot Black Hornets.
Someone above mentioned killing a doe by shooting through the knuckle. I am guessing that means through the heavy bone in the shoulder. No broadhead is going to give good penetration if you hit heavy bone. The vital area on an animal won't expand or contract based on broadhead choice. Thinking you can kill an elk going through heavy bone is a bad idea regardless of what broadhead you shoot. You can improve penetration some by increasing the bow poundage or the arrow weight.
I have enjoyed the discussion and debate.

I too understand your point. It wasn't that long ago that I could buy a new truck for $20k, or a new bow for $400 either. I've killed lots of deer since 1982 with archery equipment and there has been so many advances that I can't remember them all. If I wasn't planning elk and moose hunts I probably would never change from my current heads. I've rarely seen a broad head fail on a deer with proper shot placement.

I've never killed an elk so I can't say what my current set up would do. I know that elk ribs are a lot larger than white tails. If there is a better product out there then I see no reason to try it if it's in my budget to do so. I shoot plenty of draw weight and around a 500 grain arrow in the mid 290's, but if I can up my chances for more penetration on a direct rib hit or a slightly marginal hit then why not.

 

[cnelk]

Sound of the bow and sound of the arrow are 2 completely different conversations and the speed of sound is not equal in all media, as it is pressure and temperature dependent.

 

[justin davis]

You standing down range as an arrow goes by and arbitrarily deciding which sound an elk will react doesn’t sound like “common sense” to me. The string noise is a quick impulse and starts right at the shot release. On the other hand the broad head noise is a steady state oscillation that (relatively speaking) will increase gradually in volume as it nears the elk. The closer it gets, the less time the animal has to react to it. Common sense says the broad head would have to get pretty close to the elk to get as loud as the string noise at which point it’s already game over unless the elk reacted to the string previously. Then again this is all just Monday morning (afternoon?) quarterbacks taking wild ass guesses


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For most animals elk...mule deer the actual sound of the arrow really doesn’t make a difference. But with animals like a coues deer I will bet money it does. I’ve listened to loud arrow setups shot from 100 yards away. I’ve stood down range and i could barely if any hear the sounds of the bow but I could hear the loud hiss of the arrow as it came towards the target. If human ears can hear that then a cagey coues deer can. I’ve seen coues deer flinch when a tweety bird flew past them.

I used to shoot blazer vanes and I had a coues deer hunt where I shot at a big buck twice.
He moved out of my arrow both times barely. He wasn’t reacting to my bow sound he was reacting to the arrow noise.

But other than a coues deer I don’t think noise matters as much.

With that said the Iron will heads are great. I used them this past season and they are wicked

 

[Bill V]

Why engineer a 2 blade broadhead with bleeders vs. a 3 blade? Any intentions on making a 3 blade broadhead in the future?

I had always preferred 3-blades in the past. I had it in my head they would fly better or be better balanced, even though the physics didn't really support it. When I started doing penetration testing on a lot of broadheads, it became clear that a 2-blade out penetrated a 3-blade significantly, even with a bleeder blade. I think there is a wedging effect when trying to create three splits radially outward rather than one main split followed by a second smaller one at 90 degrees. In soft tissue and hide the cut on contact head has a big advantage. Also, I fixed the 2 main problems I saw with other 2-blade broadheads: the tips breaking on bone contact and poor flight when the main blades are too long and wide. So, no plans for a 3-blade.

 

[DFLYFISH]

I’m a long time original German Kinetics guy. Used to use muzzy fixed 3 blade. I will say the penatration between a coc 2 blade and an expander are dramatically different from what ( I ) have witnessed in the field.

As far a noise. Your fletching choice will make a much larger difference from what I have observed.

I’m exited to try a head that might meet the GK quality but made in the USA

I will be ordering a pack for sure

 

[Shraggs]

Hi bill,

I'm going to try your Bh as I've been looking for a tougher one.

Used a lot of things over years, one mechanical has stood out (among some good fixed), for me and my kills. The grim reaper razor tip - not the cut. In part because it has surprised me penetrating and on bone on a few occasions. I moved to it cause I was disappointed in cut on contact fixed blade penetration - which I think you have addressed in your design for sure. Curious if you did testing with chisel type heads (old thunder head too) comparatively?

Also, would you say your vented is typical tunning for flight and what challenges have you noticed on the non-vented running?

 

[Bill V]

Hi bill,

I'm going to try your Bh as I've been looking for a tougher one.

Used a lot of things over years, one mechanical has stood out (among some good fixed), for me and my kills. The grim reaper razor tip - not the cut. In part because it has surprised me penetrating and on bone on a few occasions. I moved to it cause I was disappointed in cut on contact fixed blade penetration - which I think you have addressed in your design for sure. Curious if you did testing with chisel type heads (old thunder head too) comparatively?

Also, would you say your vented is typical tunning for flight and what challenges have you noticed on the non-vented running?

I have tested a number of chisel point heads. Some of the all steel chisel point heads are very strong at the tip, but often the blades become damaged with bone contact.

We have just been tuning bows with field points and then shooting the broadheads with no further tuning. We have four shooters getting great results on the solid blade testing right now and here are a couple independent reviews on the flight of the vented broadheads:

The Iron Will is discussed at 20:00 minutes in on this one:
EPISODE 272: Aron Snyder Talks About Broadheads — Gritty Bowmen

This one is at 60, 80, & 100 yards:
Iron Will Test 2 "Very Long Range" - YouTube

 

[ozyclint]

Im sure all of the higher quality companies have done product analysis and feasibility studies prior to investing in such endeavors.

Companies don't have to do any testing, that's all been done. Dr Ashby's reports into arrow lethality are the most comprehensive, widely respected, scientific method based studies done to date. Yet very few BH manufacturers have designed anything that takes note of his findings.
It's actually as if they read them then make something the exact opposite.

Marketing sells anything these days and it seems to me that the BH market demands something other than what has been shown to be optimal.