Elk Caliber with Particular Rifle Considerations

[BuckSmasher]

Define close range? For me, from a bullet performance perspective, there’s only a maximum range (how far out does it go below 1800 FPS).

From a shooting perspective, today, my maximum range is 300 yards. After that, it’s a matter of further practice, particularly in wind, before I can say I would take a longer shot on a game animal. I have more confidence in my bullet’s ability to perform than I do in my ability to put it where it belongs. But that’s why we practice… in a couple of months, it will be further than that.

As long as I only have to penetrate 16-18” inches of animal to get through the vitals, it’s game on as long as the bullet will be going 1800 FPS and it’s at a range where I know I can put every shot into the vitals. Broadside is ideal, of course, but quartering angles can be acceptable under the right circumstances.

Did you watch the video I posted?

 

[BuckSmasher]

There’s only one set of gospel and it ain’t on RokSlide.

At least we agree on that.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Did you watch the video I posted?

JVB’s video? That worries me about as much as the idea that the elk is going to shoot back at me.

 

[BuckSmasher]

JVB’s video? That worries me about as much as the idea that the elk is going to shoot back at me.

Why?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Why?

Elk don’t have cow bones? The thickest bones on an elk don’t guard the basketball sized vitals?

 

[BuckSmasher]

Elk don’t have cow bones? The thickest bones on an elk don’t guard the basketball sized vitals?

True.

But they aren't that far off, maybe 25-30% smaller? And what if you need to break the SMALLER bones on and elk AND penetrate another 8-12 inches before getting to a single vital?

I.E. bull is quartering away and you need to break a rib and go 10 inches before the first lung.


The evidence that a lightly constructed .223 bullet cannot effectively penetrate is clear and overwhelming. It is clear you have made up your mind.

I am telling you, honestly, that frequently I had failures to penetrate on small Texas pigs, a dude on 'the' thread posted pics of that very thing. Why do you think that the 10 inches of an elk will get out of the way for a tiny terribly constructed bullet? I honestly don't understand?

 

[DLSJR]

I should be fair. You accurately describe how bullets work, but you misstate the toughness of the animal and you start from the assumption that the smaller caliber doesn’t already do enough damage to kill the animal.

And with all due respect (and I do respect you) smaller caliber bullets don’t do nearly as much damage as larger caliber, heavier bullets.

And elk are harder to kill efficiently than most deer, antelope or bunny rabbits. At least, they are when you shoot them with small caliber, light bullets.

As we all grow older and our experience grows, we often modify our views based on our past experiences and input from people we trust. In my case, I know a fair number of long time African Professional Hunters (PH’s). They see more game taken in just a few years than most of us will shoot in our lifetimes, so I give a lot of credence to what they say. Universally, these PH’s believe ‘bigger is better’ and generally eschew small caliber, light and fast bullets. They value heavy for caliber, stout bullets at moderate speeds that penetrate deeply. Most do not want to see any client hunter arrive with anything smaller than a .270, which by the way is the smallest legally allowed caliber in most countries not called South Africa. They love it when people show up with a .30-06 or .300 magnum paired with a .375.

So, maybe my views are skewed by my own experience and that of many friends. To me, their experience speaks volumes. I don’t necessarily give the same weight to people I don’t know and haven’t hunted with.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

And with all due respect (and I do respect you) smaller caliber bullets don’t do nearly as much damage as larger caliber, heavier bullets.

And elk are harder to kill efficiently than most deer, antelope or bunny rabbits. At least, they are when you shoot them with small caliber, light bullets.

As we all grow older and our experience grows, we often modify our views based on our past experiences and input from people we trust. In my case, I know a fair number of long time African Professional Hunters (PH’s). They see more game taken in just a few years than most of us will shoot in our lifetimes, so I give a lot of credence to what they say. Universally, these PH’s believe ‘bigger is better’ and generally eschew small caliber, light and fast bullets. They value heavy for caliber, stout bullets at moderate speeds that penetrate deeply. Most do not want to see any client hunter arrive with anything smaller than a .270, which by the way is the smallest legally allowed caliber in most countries not called South Africa. They love it when people show up with a .30-06 or .300 magnum paired with a .375.

So, maybe my views are skewed by my own experience and that of many friends. To me, their experience speaks volumes. I don’t necessarily give the same weight to people I don’t know and haven’t hunted with.

I can get a bit sarcastic in the back and forth, but I respect your opinion too.

I don’t think laws and regulations are a good guide for what works. There’s a lot of gate keeping rules out there. The requirement to use .375 caliber cartridges for certain game animals was originally to keep people from using the cheaper, more commonly available rifles.

And I won’t defer to conventional wisdom from any group about what it takes to kill animals. I can read articles by experienced hunters, like Craig Boddington, who has probably killed more animals than I have ever seen, and see nonsense about how a good .264 caliber 140-grain bullet won't work on some African plains animal, but a good .284 caliber 140-grain bullet will.

I think African game hunting would lose some of its mystique if people realized you could use any old cartridge to do the job for most animals. A whole generation of hunters killed boatloads of animals with 6.5x54, 7x57, and .303. With far worse bullets than we have today. I read about Hemingway shooting Eland multiple times with his monolithic .30-06 bullets and think how much better off he would have been with a 6x scope and a good modern rifle.

And, as we apparently all agree, shot placement is king. If you can't place your shots accurately, there's no sporting rifle bullet that is going to make up for it.

If I am shooting a duiker, you really think I need a .270 Winchester? Of course not.

 

[KHntr]

There are no ethical .22 s for elk.

I have to ask, how many elk have you killed and with what cartridges and bullets?

 

[DLSJR]

@BuckSmasher @DLSJR
You guys shoot whatever you want, but don’t imply anybody who doesn’t agree with your choice is unethical.

@EdMN22 OP, sorry your well intentioned question post got taken way off the rails. I hope you tune back in and update us with what you chose to get

It’s UNethical to shoot elk with a .22 caliber bullet. And I’m pretty confident it’s also not legal in many states.

@43.6N since you’re a proponent of .22’s for elk, why don’t you educate the rest of us by telling us just how many elk you’ve killed with them? Or even just how many elk? You strike me as way more of a keyboard troll than an elk hunter.

 

[trd1]

Hello. I am interested in purchasing a rifle for elk hunting. I have experience with shotguns, 5.56, and archery. I have been in the rabbit hole, both on rokslide and elsewhere. I prefer archery hunting but a group of us are planning a trip for rifle season. I’m between 3 or so choices and I just can’t make a decision.

Tikka T3x Lite in 308
Seekins Ph3 in 7 PRC
Bergara in 300WM.

My concerns are:
308- Pros- Lightweight/Shootability/ Concerns-“knockdown” power
7 PRC- Pros- Larger Seekins- Rifle cost, ammo quality/availability (I’m not a reloader)
300 WM-Bergara-Pros- 30 Cal, velocity, Cons- Weight, recoil

I have a max 300 yard range I shoot at. I really don’t think I’d take a shot further than that no matter the rifle. It wouldn’t be ethical without a lot of practice at those distances. I would imagine most elk are taken within that distance? Has anybody ever hunted with a 308 and wished for more? I don’t want to wound an animal. Is there a caliber I should consider outside of these? Should a 30.06 or 7 REM Mag be a consideration?

Tikka makes a great rifle and 308 is a capable round with good availability.

 

[DLSJR]

I can get a bit sarcastic in the back and forth, but I respect your opinion too.

I don’t think laws and regulations are a good guide for what works. There’s a lot of gate keeping rules out there. The requirement to use .375 caliber cartridges for certain game animals was originally to keep people from using the cheaper, more commonly available rifles.

And I won’t defer to conventional wisdom from any group about what it takes to kill animals. I can read articles by experienced hunters, like Craig Boddington, who has probably killed more animals than I have ever seen, and see nonsense about how a good .264 caliber 140-grain bullet won't work on some African plains animal, but a good .284 caliber 140-grain bullet will.

I think African game hunting would lose some of its mystique if people realized you could use any old cartridge to do the job for most animals. A whole generation of hunters killed boatloads of animals with 6.5x54, 7x57, and .303. With far worse bullets than we have today. I read about Hemingway shooting Eland multiple times with his monolithic .30-06 bullets and think how much better off he would have been with a 6x scope and a good modern rifle.

And, as we apparently all agree, shot placement is king. If you can't place your shots accurately, there's no sporting rifle bullet that is going to make up for it.

If I am shooting a duiker, you really think I need a .270 Winchester? Of course not.

You know one universal truth about those old time hunters you referenced who used 7x57’s & 303’s (not too sure about 6.5x55)? One universal truth is those old time Africans didn’t shoot much game very far. To them, anything much over 200-250 yards is a long way. They believed in getting within good range. That’s a concept too many modern American hunters don’t appreciate well enough.

 

[Bluefish]

You know one universal truth about those old time hunters you referenced who used 7x57’s & 303’s (not too sure about 6.5x55)? One universal truth is those old time Africans didn’t shoot much game very far. To them, anything much over 200-250 yards is a long way. They believed in getting within good range. That’s a concept too many modern American hunters don’t appreciate well enough.

Part of that is when you shoot large calibers with short bullets the bc is horrible and velocity decays really fast. Bullets have changed a lot since most of the game laws were written. If you look at how the magnum’s came into favor, it made sense, but technology didn’t stop there.

I don’t get to hunt with small calibers, but having to use medium to big calibers has shown me that bullet construction and the correct speed is important, not so much the head stamp. I am sure any 22 cal copper or fmj would work horribly as would a vmax. Used 35 cal ttsx’s this year and not at all impressed. Didn’t do much more than a caliber sized hole. Sure it went right through the deer, just didn’t do much damage on the way.

 

[43.6N]

You strike me as way more of a keyboard troll than an elk hunter.

Sorry you feel that way.

Let the record bear out my advice in this thread has been:
-Shoot something the op can practice with (308).
-Practice matters more than ballistics (for the OP’s 300yd limit between 308,7prc,300wm)
-And that competency determines ethics, not caliber.

I looked through and couldn’t find where I said 223 is THE elk round.

Anyway, sorry for offending you with how I presented what I thought to be reasonable and rational advice for an archery hunter looking to buy his elk rifle.

And with that I’m off to enjoy some spring mountains. All the best

 

[DLSJR]

Sorry you feel that way.

Let the record bear out my advice in this thread has been:
-Shoot something the op can practice with (308).
-Practice matters more than ballistics (for the OP’s 300yd limit between 308,7prc,300wm)
-And that competency determines ethics, not caliber.

I looked through and couldn’t find where I said 223 is THE elk round.

Anyway, sorry for offending you with how I presented what I thought to be reasonable and rational advice for an archery hunter looking to buy his elk rifle.

And with that I’m off to enjoy some spring mountains. All the best

Fair enough. Based on what you just posted, we agree on much.

Where I will not agree with anyone is when they advocate hunting elk with any .22 caliber chambering. Just because it can be done doesn’t mean it should be. Using any .22 caliber on elk is a stunt, it’s a “Look at me” type thing. Anyone who gives a damn about the animals they hunt, shoots something sufficient for their quarry, not something that’ll work some of the time under ideal conditions.

 

[BuckSmasher]

Fair enough. Based on what you just posted, we agree on much.

Where I will not agree with anyone is when they advocate hunting elk with any .22 caliber chambering. Just because it can be done doesn’t mean it should be. Using any .22 caliber on elk is a stunt, it’s a “Look at me” type thing. Anyone who gives a damn about the animals they hunt, shoots something sufficient for their quarry, not something that’ll work some of the time under ideal conditions.

This needs to be plastered at the top of the browser window for everyone browsing this forum.

 

[KHntr]

Fair enough. Based on what you just posted, we agree on much.

Where I will not agree with anyone is when they advocate hunting elk with any .22 caliber chambering. Just because it can be done doesn’t mean it should be. Using any .22 caliber on elk is a stunt, it’s a “Look at me” type thing. Anyone who gives a damn about the animals they hunt, shoots something sufficient for their quarry, not something that’ll work some of the time under ideal

*sigh*… right back to insulting people and talking out of your ass again.

Here’s the thing, it isn’t the chambering that matters. It’s the bullet.
Guys, such as yourself, that crow about cartridges and don’t talk about the bullets merely show a lack of understanding of the mechanics of killing.

 

[BuckSmasher]

*sigh*… right back to insulting people and talking out of your ass again.

Here’s the thing, it isn’t the chambering that matters. It’s the bullet.
Guys, such as yourself, that crow about cartridges and don’t talk about the bullets merely show a lack of understanding of the mechanics of killing.

I’m talking bullets. What have we been talking about? .22 bullets arent big enough or heavy enough to be ethical on elk was the discussion, where you been?

 

[KHntr]

I’m talking bullets. What have we been talking about? .22 bullets arent big enough or heavy enough to be ethical on elk was the discussion, where you been?

And I’ll ask you again, what cartridges and specific bullets have YOU used to kill elk?

Exactly how big and how heavy does a bullet need to be to be “ethical” on a bull?

 

[BuckSmasher]

And I’ll ask you again, what cartridges and specific bullets have YOU used to kill

Ive never shot an animal but if i do it will be with a 77 tmk from a .223. You betcha! I bet you enjoy shooting those from your AR 15 huh?

How many big game animals have YOU shot with a 22. Lets start there.