Elk .243 or 25-06

[yycyak]

A Big Hole is always a Big Hole.

And a bad shot is always a bad shot.

I understand the argument you're making: It's the whole "Bring enough gun" thing. To put it another way, there's a joke I heard once:

Anyone can build a house that stands up. But only an engineer can build a house that just barely stands up.

The point is why not have a Margin of Error? Why not have that extra bit of extra insurance, just in case? Why not build a house that always stands up, no matter the circumstance?

And you're be correct. Margin of Error is great to have. But there's that pesky "Marginal returns" thing.

So whether you realize it or not, you're doing the same thing that we all do: Chase the red "X" at the top of my graph. And that "X" comes down to the question of what cartridge/bullet combo gives a person maximum Hit % combined with a Big Hole? AKA The Unicorn Combo: The point where there are no more gains to be had by adding mass/velocity, and your Hit % starts to drop off.

The 223 isn't the Unicorn. Nobody is suggesting that. All that is being stated is that Science Tech has moved .22cal projectiles up the bell curve from "not optimal" for Big Game (circa 1964) up into the top-ish part of the bell curve. 22cal bullets can now produce Big Holes. Big Holes + high Hit % = Better chance of producing Dead Stuff.

Remember, a Big Hole is a Big Hole. Big Holes are no longer exclusive to calibre size. Science Tech = Big Holes. You can add some Margin of Error by shooting a heavier cartridge combination, but the more you add, the more you negatively affect your Hit %.

***

Personally I shoot Accubonds too.

yycyak… to me it’s not about the size of the hole. It’s about what happens when reality kicks in and the hole is in the wrong place. Then what?

I personally use a magnum specifically for long range shooting. Not for hole size. But when I started hitting elk with 200 grain Accubonds at all ranges it was amazing.

 

[roosiebull]

MPBR duh

with a fast barrel of course

 

[roosiebull]

Hold over... we old ranch kids learned it on the ranch.

you got me in trouble, my wife is pissed i'm wearing my wet waders in the house, i told her i'll take them off after reading the last couple pages of this thread

 

[Zappaman]

I first thank and appreciate today's posts (and likes) as they represent the MANY legitimate and differing viewpoints on this subject.

I told a story last night: Yes... Pappy DID make that 1100 yard kill on that deer in 1969 or so-- and I admit I was too young to really know why my dad was so damn excited- but dad WAS (and I therefore WAS). It was South Texas NEWS back then in ALL the banks, hardware stores (now called "Ranch Feed/Supply" stores), and coffee shops. We didn't need the internet-- people 100% KNEW it wasn't bullshit. We didn't have internet "experts" back then

AND... there were maybe 5-10 guys in Texas then that COULD make that shot back then. People back then were humble enough to NOT try what Pappy did... but he did it only after 40 years of reloading and hunting HIS land. It was just "magic" that my dad (and my 6 year old self) were there when it happened. BTW: Pappy was the same guy that quail hunted with a 22lr and shot them in the head. My family leased his ranch for over 20 years and I got to do some of my first shooting with him in the early 70s.

So this doesn't make me an expert I never claimed to be here... it makes me experienced. I will never shoot like Pappy (or my father) because I didn't spend my LIFE on ranches-- just 2/3rds of it . But hey all you 223 guys shooting elk-- IF Pappy can do it so can you! I never argued this point. I argued a young or inexperienced new hunter should not try it.

I remind everyone here of this story as it stands that given you KNOW THE GUN-- you can make "ethical" kills with a 223 at 450, just like Pappy made with his 7mm WM at 1100 yards. AND I have 100% agreed that it CAN be done with a 223!!! (and yes- it WILL kill... IF you make the hit).

So, in my world I live in-- I KNOW smaller calibers (even in LONG bullets) inherently carries MORE RISK at longer ranges and requires MORE GEAR and MORE EXPERTISE to do. You need better gear, but what I neglected to mention (well) in my previous posts was WIND. WIND, WIND, WIND... (there I said it).

I also really should have included WIND because after sleeping on it last night it hit me-- that is the problem. Wind is what the 1000 yard guys fight more that the elevation "dial". You can't dial in the consistent pull of gravity with wind- it varies (a lot, further out your shoot). And wind effects larger bullets WAY less out to range than smaller bullets... fact.

My dozen elk hunts in NM, CO, WY, and MT almost always has some wind- often more than 10 MPH. I'm not going to argue the "killing" power of a 223 bullet over the 7mm bullet. But I know the larger bullet bucks wind better- at ANY range. I learned this killing coyotes and small critters out to 600 yards or so. If you missed... energy didn't matter. And a 270 made hits further out than a 223 then and today.

Do many large caliber (once a year shooters) make bad shots and wound animals? -yes. They do and I have seen it in person MANY times. But I finally again must say that IF you can shoot the rifle (not flinch), that given a choice on an elk hunt... that FEW would chose a smaller caliber-- especially the 223 (however high-end your scope and rifle).

The winners at F-class and 1000 yards prove this point from what I've read over 20 years. I don't think those guys are using those larger calibers because they CAN (on dead still days which rarely exist). I think (know) they chose those calibers because THOSE calibers beat BOTH the 223 (and "super-bores") AT LONGER RANGE... where Elk often present to MANY successful hunters (thankfully like myself).

I'll end my rant here with something I've said several times here: I can take ONE gun hunting and when I pay for an elk tag... I'm NOT going to take a 223 and limit my range. Yes, I can "dial" my $1200 scope in, but I can't buck the wind like I can with a larger caliber and I can't shoot as far (as I can) with a larger bore. And so... I would NOT ever take a young hunter on a deer or elk hunt with a 223 UNLESS it was in a wooded area (or small pasture with a stand) out to 200 yards or so-- Yep! It works FINE THERE (*with the right bullet).

You 223 guys and I have never disagreed here re. the 223 post on what a 223 bullet can do-- I have only expanded on the fact that it's HARD to do way out there AND the 223 has a distance limit large bores do not (especially with regard for WIND!)

Inches matter vertically AND horizontally.

 

[KurtR]

This needs to be posted again

 

[Zappaman]

You can add some Margin of Error by shooting a heavier cartridge combination, but the more you add, the more you negatively affect your Hit %.

***

Personally I shoot Accubonds too.

To a degree, I agree. But my pellet gun (super accurate 1970 Benjamin) has less kick than a 223 and is DEFINITELY more accurate at 30 yards. But... we have to "add more" to get there and there are more factors than bullet "killability" (not a word I know) when (if) we GET there and we have to do it in gravity AND in WIND.

So I'd suggest there is a "sweet spot" where the 1000 yard guys (or F-class) guys) know a "balance" between these two extremes. I'd also suggest that a 223 isn't easy to take past it's "sweet spot"- but yes... if can be done (and the bullet WILL kill). No argument. I once shot a dove at 50 yards with my pellet gun-- and I WAS stoked (at the age of about 10 then)

But for elk (or deer) past about 200 yards... to me it's NOT about a terminal energy (bullet) argument... it's about what can GET THERE and STAY on target to deliver that energy (whatever it is). You HAVE to make the hit.

I went from a 7mm RM to a 260ai for the EXACT reasons you make... we agree. But this discussion IS about killing elk (and deer) with a caliber (223) that isn't as optimal as a 243 or 6.5 at ALL ranges it CAN kill well. Just me, but when I shoot at my buddies shooting range (every few months) I find my sweet spot at 300 yards (the range's limit) with a larger caliber, Yes, I can just as easily put a 260AI into the target as I can my 223 at 8AM... but on windy days (most here in Kansas... after 8:01AM) I personally can shoot the 260ai better. That is my experience anyway (and that is all I have to give you).

 

[Centralcoastca]

It’s not really that hard to shoot a decent sized rifle. Shoot a lot, figure it out. Learn to shoot then learn to hunt coyotes or whatever doesn’t matter, then learn to hunt deer and elk etc all the while learning to shoot. Maybe I’m just an old school moron, but this seems kinda dumb. The whole military has .5.56(.223) but the guys who specialize in shooting other guys really far away shoot .300wm and such. These are fragile humans, not elk and they thought it was better. Again, it’s not that hard to shoot a big gun, you just have to invest the time to do it. Yes an elk can be killed by a .22. You could also ride a Vespa on the freeway, but why? Sorry, I just realized that I was responding to the ongoing long range .223 talk and not the op question. I think the .25-06 would be a good option, but the 7mm-08 would be worth a look with a little more energy in a similar recoil area you’re looking for.

 

[fbhandler]

Then one day Science showed up.

Is that the same science that literally “believes” that nothing exploded and everything was “created” ??

Don’t kid yourself, it’s a ridiculous analogy… not an “enlightened one”

 

[yycyak]

Not a problem at all, I'll skip the analogy and use small words, just for you:

Cup and Core; Frangible;

I don't know about the other stuff. I'm in the camp of people who think that frost giants created the world, because that seems like way more fun.

Is that the same science that literally “believes” that nothing exploded and everything was “created” ??

Don’t kid yourself, it’s a ridiculous analogy… not an “enlightened one”

 

[roosiebull]

But this discussion IS about killing elk (and deer) with a caliber (223) that isn't as optimal as a 243 or 6.5 at ALL ranges it CAN kill well.

i think you might want to check the thread title.... haha

as for the rest, most of the guys on your side of the fence would actually say the same thing about your heavy hitting .260, especially when you start talking 600yds on elk with Kentucky windage, haha

ask Indian Summer what his thoughts are on a .260 at 600 yds on an elk with kentucky windage, and if he would be fine with a client doing that on the side of a mountain... with no range finder of course... "don't worry bro, i grew up on a ranch.."........ BOOOOOOOOM

 

[Indian Summer]

I’m honestly not a numbers guy. I mean….. I know them for my guns but don’t care enough about other guns to study up on them. Generally speaking I’m not very comfortable with any client shooting 600 yards unless we’ve had a lengthy discussion about his setup and abilities. But even then 600 yards is a long poke for any gun that isn’t a true long range rifle. That means a top of the line scope too. Leupold Mark 4 or 5 type. Scopes tell a lot about a guy. If someone says to me “I’m prepared to shoot to 800 yards” then they tell me all about the great deal they got on a Vortek scope I say to myself ok he’s half committed. I won’t take them where they can shoot past 500. I borrowed a Vortek last year and it was like a toy!

Question: What is the max effective range of a .223 with the best bullet for the job? What’s the heaviest bullet you can load in it? And last how much energy is it packing at that range?

Oh and also what level of penetration do you expect from that setup? Just enough? Pass through? Educate me…..

 

[sndmn11]

Question: And last how much energy is it packing at that range?

I am still really curious what "energy" plays into creating wound channels? This is a genuine question. One can take a steel core bullet and a lead core bullet of the same mass, load them up to the same velocity, and they would have the same kinetic energy. Their wound channels would be drastically different. That is why I posted the two gel tests a few pages back. Drastically different amounts of kinetic energy, but very similar wound channels. Same example before if I loaded up a 208gr amax or a 208gr LRX in 300BO, they would do different things on the terminal end.

I think, my opinion is, that the bullet's construction should be the focus, the ideal impact velocity window it was designed for optimal upset, and then pick the cartridge that delivers the bullet within that window. For the mono bullets my family shoots that means we don't plan to take first shots beyond 300-400 yards, but we surely practice beyond that. That keeps us above 2000fps, and I expect less expansion, more penetration, and a smaller wound channel as the velocity decreases with an increased shot distance.

I would go through the same evaluation if I were to hunt pronghorn/deer/elk with the 80gr. ELDm that I have my 22br loaded up with and learn my ideal impact velocity.


One of these is a 30-06, the other 224 Valkyrie, ELDx and ELDm respectively with similar BC and velocity. I would bet that the wound channels would be similar and I think that wound channels equal damage.

 

[Formidilosus]

Question: What is the max effective range of a .223 with the best bullet for the job? What’s the heaviest bullet you can load in it? And last how much energy is it packing at that range?

1). Max effective is determined by impact velocity. For the 77gr TMK with the load that everyone I know shoots (2,840fps MV), at 5k DA that is 610 yards. However, my experience says that almost no one shoots enough to have high probability of success on 600 yard shots in unknown field environments with any chambering.


2). 95gr SMK’s are loaded in 223’s.

3). Ft-lbs of energy is not a wounding mechanism and can not tell you what the bullet will do in tissue- this is a fact.

Oh and also what level of penetration do you expect from that setup? Just enough? Pass through? Educate me…..

Higher impact velocities= less penetration. Lower impact velocities= more penetration.

All the elk we have shot all 77gr TMK’s have fully penetrated the chest including “shoulders” and quartering shots, and were caught by the offside hide except two- one exited; and one was shot in the chest, turned and got a a hard quartering away shot straight through the left hip/femur to drop it. That shot broke the femur and penetrated into the stomach.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I’ve Used both. 80gr ttsx Barnes Vortex(OTC)load in a 243, is pretty impressive <200 yards. Gotten exists on mule deer, and under far side skin on elk.

The 100gr partition was my go to in my 25-06(3300ft).

While I haven’t used the 115 gr vld in 25-06 I have it loaded in my 257wby and node ended up at warmer 2506 speeds at 3250. Pretty much killed everything from hog to elk and tough exotics(nilgi, aoudad, oryx, etc) with that said 90% of my shots are high shoulder w/this caliber

 

[KurtR]

I’m honestly not a numbers guy. I mean….. I know them for my guns but don’t care enough about other guns to study up on them. Generally speaking I’m not very comfortable with any client shooting 600 yards unless we’ve had a lengthy discussion about his setup and abilities. But even then 600 yards is a long poke for any gun that isn’t a true long range rifle. That means a top of the line scope too. Leupold Mark 4 or 5 type. Scopes tell a lot about a guy. If someone says to me “I’m prepared to shoot to 800 yards” then they tell me all about the great deal they got on a Vortek scope I say to myself ok he’s half committed. I won’t take them where they can shoot past 500. I borrowed a Vortek last year and it was like a toy!

Question: What is the max effective range of a .223 with the best bullet for the job? What’s the heaviest bullet you can load in it? And last how much energy is it packing at that range?

Oh and also what level of penetration do you expect from that setup? Just enough? Pass through? Educate me…..

Haha you said leupold and top of the line. That’s a whole other topic though.

 

[Rich M]

...and if you don't have good shooting form/mechanics, find somebody that can teach you. I can't believe guys on here are concerned about recoil from the .30 calibers mentioned- 06, WM, etc... My 14 and 16 year old daughters weigh 130-140 pounds and can accuratley shoot my .308, .35 Whelen, 06, and muzzleloader without flinching. There's nothing "macho" about these guns at all. If you're worried about flinching or getting scope bit, practice your ass off with a .22, hone your mechanics, and then get a scope with generous eye relief for your hunting rifle.

The OP mentions neck and shoulder issues.

Kudos to you for teaching your girls good form.

My old man told me I had to use a 3006 from the age of 8 or not hunt with him. I shoulda stayed home but always tried to please him. I still flinch with 3006 44 seasons later. It's a mental thing and I hate the caliber and the whole reason I have the bad habit. Funny thing is that I can hit a quarter at 250 yards with it but it takes a bit of concentration not to flinch. Just tired of the effort behind shooting the 3006 - wish I had downgraded 30 years ago.

Dropped to a 243 but the 80+ yo old man grabs that gun when I take him hunting and I had been stuck with the 3006. Missed another buck, got mad and bought a 350 legend instead of another 243. Love it. Throws a heavier bullet with light recoil and mild noise - if it's inside 300 yards I can kill it easily with the 350 Legend.

Buddy wants to go elk hunting - cows on the winter range. I wonder if I would carry the 3006 or 350 Legend. Considering just showing up with Legend and some 180 grains bullets and killing a cow.

 

[Zappaman]

i think you might want to check the thread title.... haha

as for the rest, most of the guys on your side of the fence would actually say the same thing about your heavy hitting .260, especially when you start talking 600yds on elk with Kentucky windage, haha

ask Indian Summer what his thoughts are on a .260 at 600 yds on an elk with kentucky windage, and if he would be fine with a client doing that on the side of a mountain... with no range finder of course... "don't worry bro, i grew up on a ranch.."........ BOOOOOOOOM

Uh… check the thread title? Do you NOT believe men killed elk at 600 yards before scopes dialed??? (*and yes, those men mostly came from ranches).

Those guys on “my side of the fence” are the 223 guys shooting elk at 450 with a 223. It can be done. …boom…

 

[Indian Summer]

Haha you said leupold and top of the line. That’s a whole other topic though.

Something you’d like to say? Just like lots of manufacturers they make lower grade product lines. But they also make the Mark 4 and 5 which is military grade and Swat team quality. Rock solid never moves from where you put it. Tough as nails and warrantied for life.

 

[260madman]

Something you’d like to say? Just like lots of manufacturers they make lower grade product lines. But they also make the Mark 4 and 5 which is military grade and Swat team quality. Rock solid never moves from where you put it. Tough as nails and warrantied for life.

Oh man. Guess I better go to the store and grab some beer. I have plenty of popcorn.
We’re going to cover everything in this thread.

 

[woods89]

Oh man. Guess I better go to the store and grab some beer. I have plenty of popcorn.
We’re going to cover everything in this thread.

We need a The Real Gunsmith video yet.....