ELK 101: Botched Hunts/Definition of a guide/Outfitters

[taz_gerstman]

IMO...Outfitters provide a way for folks to hunt something somewhere they wouldn't normally be able to on their own, without some unnecessary grief. Providing a reasonable opportunity for success. Most guys have a week or maybe 2. In that time most spend half traveling, setting up camp, scouting and handling other issues that come up. Plus money spent on camp gear is pricy, especially if done to have moderately comfortable living conditions in camp.
Then there's maintenance for equipment if used every year.

The following is how it works with us.
Wrap your gear the night before. Next morning guests have breakfast at 7 and everyone is on trail from lodge to camp by 830am. Usually get in camp by 130pm. Crew unwrap gear and put stock away. Cook has snacks out. Relax until 4 or so. Get situated all that.
Then we go hunt that evening. Serves several purposes. First, after a 5 hour horse ride its good to stretch the legs and get muscles moving. Second let's us see what our hunters capabilities are. Third, as much chance harvesting first night as last night. Although hunters usually pass shooting first night. Eventhough we highly suggest they not do that. Lol. Then we hunt next 5 days during rifle or 6 days archery.

At end of hunt, hunters set out a couple bags. We wrap them up and head out.

Back at lodge hunters get a big steak dinner. While crew unwrap their gear.

Hunters can stay night in a cabin or head out immediately. We give rides to airport if needed.

Hunters harvest game we do all the work. Field dress, pack out, haul to butcher, caping, even make arrangements/suggestions how to transport meat on plane. Usually cheaper to take meat on plane and we ship your gear to you. Several options there.

Anyway, point is, you get to come hunt and not have to worry about the 99 percent of headaches that DIY guys go through. Some guys like the headaches, I salute you as well.

With a proper outfitter you don't need to be in as good of shape as a DIY guy. Hopefully the outfitter you choose knows the animal behavior and habits of the area. Can atleast set you somewhere that is probably going to he productive. Although being in shape is better.
We take folks who are severely out of shape or pretty old. One couple comes every year and they are both almost 80.

The food is a big deal. Sometimes hunting is tough just how it is. The food is controllable. If people can eat good and laugh when hunting is tough. Almost always things change and a couple are harvested. Attitude us a big deal when hunting. If you on your own in tough hunting and your camp us rough. Odds are very good you quit 10 minutes before the miracle.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents hope it helps.

I will say the food was good. The guides did not do any type of pre scouting for our hunts. I think they were going off the prior muzzy hunts and bow hunt. I was told by my guide that they did put out some cameras for the bow hunters so I was curious as to why the didn't do that as a norm routine for all hunters. I am sure time gets in there way as I said before these guides have other jobs as well and life so not real sure just how much time they put in preparing for the next hunts. Again I felt as if though we were doing more scouting than hunting. Not saying you shouldn't scout some as you hunt along because you might find something that shows potential and draw you back to an area. A lot of what my guide did this time was the same as during the bow season 4 years ago. I talked to my friend who was with us last time and experienced it first hand and he couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe that he would use a lot of the same tactics for rifle as he did bow. Now I know some things will help and some will not but his tactics were not working here. Another thing the other guide didn't do that I was shocked was the total cleaning of the skull cap that the other hunters wanted to keep. I informed them, because they didn't do their homework, about CWD and the transporting of game across state lines. They were taking their meat to the local processor but they wanted to keep the horns and half the skull for a skull mount I think it was. Well the guide just cut thru using a saw and just said here you go and left. Now that to me isn't right because they to should be aware of all the potential laws that we as traveling hunters could face and they should make sure and be 100% confident that if we get stopped along the way and checked that we don't take a chance on losing the game ie the horns, etc. I understand that we as hunters should take some responsibility but we are paying them good money to do this and it should be part of their job description. Yes I know that you don't have this on DIY but I am not talking about that so I wish people would stop brining up DIY hunts. I am just simply asking people for advice on the situation and comments about peoples guided hunt experiences. Sounds to me like yes you can have a bad hunt based on guides short comings, whatever those may be.

 

[ckstites]

unit 6a

We were west of you in unit 10 Sep 3-10th. 90 degrees during the afternoon. Tough hunting with warm temps and drought conditions. Sounded like your guide was not the best. I have found the ambition of the guide to taylor to YOUR hunt is huge and unless you hunt with the same outfitter every year, impossible to request a guide. Yes, I feel the outfitters do take care of big money and repeat clients first which they most likely feel is good business sense, but not great for clients that don't go every year. I think smaller outfitters with fewer clients each week are preferred.
These days, unless you are close enough to scout the area, guides are usually better at finding the elk in tough times or heavy pressure.
Unfortuately, we missed out on the "golden era" of western hunting when hunters were fewer and there was space for all.... dammit..

 

[taz_gerstman]

yes I would say that even during our hunt the conditions were less than favorable and like I have said before I just feel things were more in favor for those who were friends of the wealthy repeat customer. I mean the conditions were the same for everyone so that is what perplexes me.

 

[Next Ridge]

I will say the food was good. The guides did not do any type of pre scouting for our hunts. I think they were going off the prior muzzy hunts and bow hunt. I was told by my guide that they did put out some cameras for the bow hunters so I was curious as to why the didn't do that as a norm routine for all hunters. I am sure time gets in there way as I said before these guides have other jobs as well and life so not real sure just how much time they put in preparing for the next hunts. Again I felt as if though we were doing more scouting than hunting. Not saying you shouldn't scout some as you hunt along because you might find something that shows potential and draw you back to an area. A lot of what my guide did this time was the same as during the bow season 4 years ago. I talked to my friend who was with us last time and experienced it first hand and he couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe that he would use a lot of the same tactics for rifle as he did bow. Now I know some things will help and some will not but his tactics were not working here. Another thing the other guide didn't do that I was shocked was the total cleaning of the skull cap that the other hunters wanted to keep. I informed them, because they didn't do their homework, about CWD and the transporting of game across state lines. They were taking their meat to the local processor but they wanted to keep the horns and half the skull for a skull mount I think it was. Well the guide just cut thru using a saw and just said here you go and left. Now that to me isn't right because they to should be aware of all the potential laws that we as traveling hunters could face and they should make sure and be 100% confident that if we get stopped along the way and checked that we don't take a chance on losing the game ie the horns, etc. I understand that we as hunters should take some responsibility but we are paying them good money to do this and it should be part of their job description. Yes I know that you don't have this on DIY but I am not talking about that so I wish people would stop brining up DIY hunts. I am just simply asking people for advice on the situation and comments about peoples guided hunt experiences. Sounds to me like yes you can have a bad hunt based on guides short comings,

I will say the food was good. The guides did not do any type of pre scouting for our hunts. I think they were going off the prior muzzy hunts and bow hunt. I was told by my guide that they did put out some cameras for the bow hunters so I was curious as to why the didn't do that as a norm routine for all hunters. I am sure time gets in there way as I said before these guides have other jobs as well and life so not real sure just how much time they put in preparing for the next hunts. Again I felt as if though we were doing more scouting than hunting. Not saying you shouldn't scout some as you hunt along because you might find something that shows potential and draw you back to an area. A lot of what my guide did this time was the same as during the bow season 4 years ago. I talked to my friend who was with us last time and experienced it first hand and he couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe that he would use a lot of the same tactics for rifle as he did bow. Now I know some things will help and some will not but his tactics were not working here. Another thing the other guide didn't do that I was shocked was the total cleaning of the skull cap that the other hunters wanted to keep. I informed them, because they didn't do their homework, about CWD and the transporting of game across state lines. They were taking their meat to the local processor but they wanted to keep the horns and half the skull for a skull mount I think it was. Well the guide just cut thru using a saw and just said here you go and left. Now that to me isn't right because they to should be aware of all the potential laws that we as traveling hunters could face and they should make sure and be 100% confident that if we get stopped along the way and checked that we don't take a chance on losing the game ie the horns, etc. I understand that we as hunters should take some responsibility but we are paying them good money to do this and it should be part of their job description. Yes I know that you don't have this on DIY but I am not talking about that so I wish people would stop brining up DIY hunts. I am just simply asking people for advice on the situation and comments about peoples guided hunt experiences. Sounds to me like yes you can have a bad hunt based on guides short comings, whatever those may be.

Sounds like you had a rough go. I am struggling to understand what kind of advice you are expecting.

 

[taz_gerstman]

not really advice as much as feedback on the experiences that i listed and just food for thoughts. just conversation overall

 

[MallardSX2]

My friend guided for a man in Montana for a couple years.

They took newcomers on nature walks.

They took repeat clients to where the animals were at.

That was the direct instructions of the outfitter to my friend.

My friend said it really sucked because they hardly saw anything and his tips reflected it. The other guides got into more game and got better tips and he was new there so he was always stuck taking new people on nature walks.

He left after 2 seasons of working for the guy.

So yes, it happens.

And for the record I dont hunt with guides. Besides the obvious reasons and the fact that I am cheap, and the fact that I just dont like anybody telling me what to do while I am on vacation.

 

[Deadfall]

I will say the food was good. The guides did not do any type of pre scouting for our hunts. I think they were going off the prior muzzy hunts and bow hunt. I was told by my guide that they did put out some cameras for the bow hunters so I was curious as to why the didn't do that as a norm routine for all hunters. I am sure time gets in there way as I said before these guides have other jobs as well and life so not real sure just how much time they put in preparing for the next hunts. Again I felt as if though we were doing more scouting than hunting. Not saying you shouldn't scout some as you hunt along because you might find something that shows potential and draw you back to an area. A lot of what my guide did this time was the same as during the bow season 4 years ago. I talked to my friend who was with us last time and experienced it first hand and he couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe that he would use a lot of the same tactics for rifle as he did bow. Now I know some things will help and some will not but his tactics were not working here. Another thing the other guide didn't do that I was shocked was the total cleaning of the skull cap that the other hunters wanted to keep. I informed them, because they didn't do their homework, about CWD and the transporting of game across state lines. They were taking their meat to the local processor but they wanted to keep the horns and half the skull for a skull mount I think it was. Well the guide just cut thru using a saw and just said here you go and left. Now that to me isn't right because they to should be aware of all the potential laws that we as traveling hunters could face and they should make sure and be 100% confident that if we get stopped along the way and checked that we don't take a chance on losing the game ie the horns, etc. I understand that we as hunters should take some responsibility but we are paying them good money to do this and it should be part of their job description. Yes I know that you don't have this on DIY but I am not talking about that so I wish people would stop brining up DIY hunts. I am just simply asking people for advice on the situation and comments about peoples guided hunt experiences. Sounds to me like yes you can have a bad hunt based on guides short comings, whatever those may be.

Imo shouldve bypassed guide immediately bd went to owner right awy

 

[HoneyDew]

My friend guided for a man in Montana for a couple years.

They took newcomers on nature walks.

They took repeat clients to where the animals were at.

That was the direct instructions of the outfitter to my friend.

My friend said it really sucked because they hardly saw anything and his tips reflected it. The other guides got into more game and got better tips and he was new there so he was always stuck taking new people on nature walks.

He left after 2 seasons of working for the guy.

So yes, it happens.

And for the record I dont hunt with guides. Besides the obvious reasons and the fact that I am cheap, and the fact that I just dont like anybody telling me what to do while I am on vacation.

I get the idea of providing preference to repeat customers. But how are you supposed to get repeats if they don’t connect with something on trip 1? Did your friend provide any rationale for this tactic?

 

[MallardSX2]

Nope. He just did what he was told and tried to make the best of it.

 

[taz_gerstman]

it is pretty sad to even think that some outfitters would decide to treat certain customers differently as a lot of you have mentioned but i guess in deed it is true that it happens. Well not that this outfitter cares i am sure but he has lost a client and i will be sure to express to others who are looking for an outfitter to not go to this one or be aware if you do.

 

[Deadfall]

My friend guided for a man in Montana for a couple years.

They took newcomers on nature walks.

They took repeat clients to where the animals were at.

That was the direct instructions of the outfitter to my friend.

My friend said it really sucked because they hardly saw anything and his tips reflected it. The other guides got into more game and got better tips and he was new there so he was always stuck taking new people on nature walks.

He left after 2 seasons of working for the guy.

So yes, it happens.

And for the record I dont hunt with guides. Besides the obvious reasons and the fact that I am cheap, and the fact that I just dont like anybody telling me what to do while I am on vacation.

That sucks. Really irritating to guys like me when we hear stuff like this....

 

[MallardSX2]

Keep in mind this was almost 20 years ago. I wouldnt even know if they guy is still in business or not.

 

[Brooks]

You need to do more research on the outfitter you want to use. Call all the guys who have hunted with him and you will know all about him. If he is good and has good guides and the hunters all had a good hunt they will talk your ear off about their hunt or they will tell you to stay away from him. I have a neighbor who is an outfitter and he has repeat hunters that keep coming back every year from all over the country and most years they kill really good bulls.

 

[chadcharb]

That sucks. Really irritating to guys like me when we hear stuff like this....

Do you mind sending me a pm? I'm looking to book an outfitter and I have a few questions

 

[taz_gerstman]

so just to be clear to everyone. I did do my homework and I called clients of his. The first client that I ever talked to an actually met while I was on a road trip told me about this outfitter and he himself had been traveling from Vermont to NM for the past 10 years or so and spoke highly of them. So this spoke volumes to me. I also reached out to others via facebook and talked to past clients and they all spoke highly. However, I do not every now and then you can get a difference of opinions and unless the bad just outweighs the good tremendously then your better off just trying them out and learning first hand unfort. So I did all the homework I could and had a good feeling. The bow hunt we had with them 4 years ago was awesome in that we saw bulls, heard bulls and were in bulls everyday but this was during the rut where the bulls were more vocal so I would think that a decent guide wouldn't have to work as hard. No I didn't harvest but got really close at times. This rifle season was just crazy from the get go. A lot of external factors which that is hunting I understand but again I just felt like there was no proper planning or game plan, urgency or whatever you want to call it. We are all hunters here and we know when we see things that just don't add up.

 

[Indian Summer]

I didn’t read all of these posts. But I did read some. Every customer service oriented type of industry has good businesses and bad ones. Outfitting is no different.

But I have to say that some of these posts do nothing other than show how very little hunters know about outfitting and guiding.

I’ll give one example.... “Our elk guide showed up a day later. No scouting no cameras, nothing”

I’m sorry but that is truly laughable. It tells me that the poster is a deer hunter who knows nothing about elk hunting. If a guide shows up early to look for elk it tells me he’s new to guiding or at least to the area. If your guide shows up the morning of the hunt, saddles up and says ok let’s roll kid you know you have an experienced elk guide. Think about that.

I’ve never known a guide to “throw” a hunt. Guides are like hunting dogs. Have you ever seen a beagle walk past a rabbit and pretend he didn’t smell it because he didn’t want someone to shoot it? Hail no!

Anyway the answer is simple. There are hundreds of thousands of elk on public land. Buy a tent drive out with a couple buddies, go find a few and kill them. You can add a second week of unpaid vacation to your hunt and still spend less.

If you have a legit reason why you can’t do a DIY hunt then choose your outfitter with care and when you get there do two things: Put yourself in the other guy’s shoes. And be the upbeat positive kinda person that other people would enjoy going the extra mile for. Good luck!

 

[taz_gerstman]

sorry indian summer but I don't full agree to that. I would tend to think that no matter how seasoned you are it is always good to keep tabs on your animals unless your hunting a high fence. animals can change their patterns and we all know that. Maybe I am not an elk guide but I don't fully believe that you can just show up having not really put some time in at some point and just say hey lets go and be somewhat successful.

 

[taz_gerstman]

I feel these posts have gotten way off in the ditch. Originally all I wanted to know was has anyone ever been on a guided hunt where they felt things were intentionally done to make the hunt unsuccessful and if so what. I didn't need comments about DIY. I know all about that. I have done my research. I have my reasons why I chose to go with a guide the first few times but that was not part of the initial question. I don't need people to assume they think they know what I did or didn't do in preparation for my hunt or what type of person I am or I am not. If I was a sorry person I wouldn't have given the guy a tip and a good one at that.

 

[kid44]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I personally would not choose to use a guide unless it was required for the hunt.

 

[Indian Summer]

yes I would say that even during our hunt the conditions were less than favorable and like I have said before I just feel things were more in favor for those who were friends of the wealthy repeat customer. I mean the conditions were the same for everyone so that is what perplexes me.

Were the rich dudes killing bulls? If so what were they doing differently? A different area? Maybe just better guides. Yours was there at least 4-5 years so he must know a thing or two.