ELK 101: Botched Hunts/Definition of a guide/Outfitters

[FLAK]

Spent 15K on an unsuccessful Brown Bear hunt once.
Saw 2 bear in 9 - 13hr days.
I still have mixed feelings about that hunt.

 

[traviswdalton]

So yes and no that it went ok. See I have no other outfitters to compare this one to and when I went last time it was a total different hunt. Meaning it was an archery hunt during the rut so the elk probably made the guide look good because they were answering calls. Now, even then he had some tactics that I did not agree with and neither did the other hunter I was with. So going into this rifle hunt I wasn't sure what to expect and I did not request the same guide. His tactics were still the same as if though it was archery season. No scouting was done prior to our hunt and he didn't arrive to camp until like 9pm the day before the first hunt. So here are a few things that makes me think the way I do right now.

1. I was told by the owner of the outfit several weeks before leaving for NM that my guide would be Rusty. I was good with that. Didn't know the guy but hey it is someone new.
2. There would be two other guys from said state in camp as well.
3. Night before the first hunt my guide was changed to the one I had. Not sure why.
4. The first hunt day my guide informed me that all the elk had went silent due to hunting pressure and locals/visitors riding atvs, etc. on the closed roads. This I can totally understand. It was very dry. A lot of water holes had dried up and the wind never did corporate. however the guide insisted on busting thru the timber and deadfall like raging bulls thinking we would sneak up on something. Same strategy as during the archery season. 95% of the time I was in areas where my visibility was only about 40 to 45 yards max. I am using a rifle here.
5. During the course of the hunt I get to know the other two guys and questioned how they knew about the outfitter. One of them proceeded to tell me that they had a very wealthy friend who had used the same outfitter for about 10 - 12 years now and brings lots of clients but is also only guided by the owner. I was also told that his wealthy friend recommended Rusty to be their guide. This is why I think my guide was changed at the last min.
6. I was also told by my guide that all of the guides and the owner usually have respect for each guide and typically do not go into areas where each one is guiding, etc. I can understand this but this is public land so to me all bets are off if a guide is not going to be in that area. The two guys killed their bulls in areas where only the owner was known to guide and areas where he guided the wealthy friend.
7. No matter how many times I told my guide I wanted to sit water holes or wallows he refused and even when we did we would only sit for like 30 mins max not to mention it would take for ever to walk to these areas.
8. My guide, as he has done in the past, consistently stayed 10 to 15 yards in front of me when walking. I tried my best to keep up but you have to remember I am a flat lander and not used to that environment out there but I did the best I could to keep up but due to him being so far ahead he would bust elk.
9. 9 out of 10 times I saw the elk and he didn't. He did very little calling and it appeared he refused to change his tactics when knowing what was stacked against us already.
10. When we were hunting he was always scouting. Marking areas in his gps etc. The other two guys noticed this about their guide as well. Appeared they were scouting for the next weeks hunt rather than focusing on our situation.
11. On the last evening hunt of the trip the other guide told my guide where we should go and showed him on the map (on x). We get there and it was an awesome spot. Same spot where one of the guys took is 6x6. As we approached the spot where we were told to sit my guide insisted that we keep walking. We ended up in this bowl of thick brush and down fall. Again the max distance was 40 yards. He did very little calling. One time on the bugle and once on the cow call and that was all.
12. My guide started having truck issues and felt it unsafe to travel to other spots that were far off. I agreed. So one morning during a hunt he decided that we would walk back to camp and he would go home and get his other truck. I had no issues with that because I felt that it was putting a limit on us going to other places. He said he would be back for the evening hunt. He didn't get back until 9pm.

I felt as if though he had no urgency or concern to find bulls. We want to so many different spots and walked miles each day and saw nothing. The most we saw was 4 cows but yet the other guide within the 2nd day goes right to a spot and starts tagging out. Sorry but this is just to fishy to me. I understand you have factors that you cant control but as a hunter I feel the guide should have changed his game plan and I feel that he should have scouted prior to our hunt. He did tell me that they put out game cameras prior to the archery hunts so why not ours. These guides don't depend on this money as their sole income. They are retired and have other jobs as well so it is not like they are under the gun to perform at a certain level with fear that they will lose their job if clients don't harvest. So often I wondered if he was a wanderer or an actual guide. I have yet to relay all of this to the owner but I intend to do so soon to see what his response is. I am pretty sure I will never go back to them again. I will say that their cooks are out of this world. We ate like kings for sure so that part was awesome. Again, I am a long time hunter and I understand issues, external factors etc. but I also understand that we alter our game plans when things change and I feel that he didn't bother to do so regardless of the outcome.

Don’t ever wait till the hunt is over to voice your concerns. Issues can’t be fixed if they don’t know about it. I’ve requested a different guide before and I got one.

New Mexico elk outfitter I recommend Andy Salgado H&A outfitters.


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[SDHNTR]

Spent 15K on an unsuccessful Brown Bear hunt once.
Saw 2 bear in 9 - 13hr days.
I still have mixed feelings about that hunt.

Add a few $K and subtract one bear and you just described my brown bear hunt last year.

 

[ozyclint]

1. Is it possible for an outfitter/guide to "throw" a hunt?

yes, absolutely!
I worked for an outfiitter in BC in spring 2008. the outfitter was only allowed 1 grizzly kill every 5 years yet they were allowed to sell that hunt again if none were killed.

I'm sure you can work out the problem with that.

 

[Jardo]

NM is a crapshoot. the tag service i used recommended my guide. i will be letting them know how awful he was.

if anyone wants to know who i used, send me a PM. i don’t know if i should post this guys name on this forum.


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[Deadfall]

You paid good money for this hunt and still haven't talked to the outfitter. Why?

From time to time situations arise and clients aren't happy about something.....insert a thousand scenarios here....

Why folks don't say something is freaking beyond me. However, I've never seen a situation where you couldn't tell the hunter was unhappy. We go out of our way to pull the problem to surface so that it can be addressed.

I work for a public land outfitter and have for a long time. Never seen anything that could not be resolved with a bit of hot coffee and COMMUNICATION!

Seen lots of guys come and go who thought they wanted to be guides. Everyone wants the fancy title. They just don't realize what a thankless job it really is. Sometimes guides are new. Sometimes life is affecting their mind. Sometimes they just suck. Mostly guys want to provide a good service and have fun.

On the other side...I've seen a bunch of hunters who were the most miserable, needy, little sisters. So maybe your guide had a tough group the week before and was still reeling from that. Which is no excuse for bad service.
However, there is also no excuse for not communicating with the outfitter.

To get on here and talk about a bad outfitter experience before you've talked to the outfitter doesnt really seem right either.

I fully get there are piles and piles of poopy outfitters out there. If you voice concerns during the hunt and nothing changes or improves then you found a bad outfitter. There is noway to know what kind of outfit you were with if you never gave them the chance to improve.

Everyone is human. Noone is perfect. For God sakes speak up if something is not to your liking, or going how you think things should.

 

[Deadfall]

If you talk to you guide and he's arrogant or nonresponsive. Tgen go straight to the owner of outfit. Not other hunters in camp. Not other guides. Not the owners wife. Go straight to the owner himself! Di it during the hunt! Not after the fact.

 

[BuzzH]

This is why I would never be a guide and why I really shy away from any kind of guided/outfitted hunts. The money tends to get in the way...both from what the client thinks they're buying, and what the outfitter thinks they're owed.

Hunting on your own is just so much less complicated and you only have to worry about yourself.

 

[AaronMColeman]

I’ve never done any guided hunt but I’d assume the outfitter asks some questions up front regarding physical condition, type of hunt expected, some basics? I know every outfitter is different but communicating from the get go has to be a sign of a good or bad outfitter right?

I’m a contractor, I ask a million questions a up front and as the project progresses. Communication eliminates 95% of on the job issues (with customers, the workers are another story).

 

[Deadfall]

IMO...Outfitters provide a way for folks to hunt something somewhere they wouldn't normally be able to on their own, without some unnecessary grief. Providing a reasonable opportunity for success. Most guys have a week or maybe 2. In that time most spend half traveling, setting up camp, scouting and handling other issues that come up. Plus money spent on camp gear is pricy, especially if done to have moderately comfortable living conditions in camp.
Then there's maintenance for equipment if used every year.

The following is how it works with us.
Wrap your gear the night before. Next morning guests have breakfast at 7 and everyone is on trail from lodge to camp by 830am. Usually get in camp by 130pm. Crew unwrap gear and put stock away. Cook has snacks out. Relax until 4 or so. Get situated all that.
Then we go hunt that evening. Serves several purposes. First, after a 5 hour horse ride its good to stretch the legs and get muscles moving. Second let's us see what our hunters capabilities are. Third, as much chance harvesting first night as last night. Although hunters usually pass shooting first night. Eventhough we highly suggest they not do that. Lol. Then we hunt next 5 days during rifle or 6 days archery.

At end of hunt, hunters set out a couple bags. We wrap them up and head out.

Back at lodge hunters get a big steak dinner. While crew unwrap their gear.

Hunters can stay night in a cabin or head out immediately. We give rides to airport if needed.

Hunters harvest game we do all the work. Field dress, pack out, haul to butcher, caping, even make arrangements/suggestions how to transport meat on plane. Usually cheaper to take meat on plane and we ship your gear to you. Several options there.

Anyway, point is, you get to come hunt and not have to worry about the 99 percent of headaches that DIY guys go through. Some guys like the headaches, I salute you as well.

With a proper outfitter you don't need to be in as good of shape as a DIY guy. Hopefully the outfitter you choose knows the animal behavior and habits of the area. Can atleast set you somewhere that is probably going to he productive. Although being in shape is better.
We take folks who are severely out of shape or pretty old. One couple comes every year and they are both almost 80.

The food is a big deal. Sometimes hunting is tough just how it is. The food is controllable. If people can eat good and laugh when hunting is tough. Almost always things change and a couple are harvested. Attitude us a big deal when hunting. If you on your own in tough hunting and your camp us rough. Odds are very good you quit 10 minutes before the miracle.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents hope it helps.

 

[AaronMColeman]

IMO...Outfitters provide a way for folks to hunt something somewhere they wouldn't normally be able to on their own, without some unnecessary grief. Providing a reasonable opportunity for success. Most guys have a week or maybe 2. In that time most spend half traveling, setting up camp, scouting and handling other issues that come up. Plus money spent on camp gear is pricy, especially if done to have moderately comfortable living conditions in camp.
Then there's maintenance for equipment if used every year.

The following is how it works with us.
Wrap your gear the night before. Next morning guests have breakfast at 7 and everyone is on trail from lodge to camp by 830am. Usually get in camp by 130pm. Crew unwrap gear and put stock away. Cook has snacks out. Relax until 4 or so. Get situated all that.
Then we go hunt that evening. Serves several purposes. First, after a 5 hour horse ride its good to stretch the legs and get muscles moving. Second let's us see what our hunters capabilities are. Third, as much chance harvesting first night as last night. Although hunters usually pass shooting first night. Eventhough we highly suggest they not do that. Lol. Then we hunt next 5 days during rifle or 6 days archery.

At end of hunt, hunters set out a couple bags. We wrap them up and head out.

Back at lodge hunters get a big steak dinner. While crew unwrap their gear.

Hunters can stay night in a cabin or head out immediately. We give rides to airport if needed.

Hunters harvest game we do all the work. Field dress, pack out, haul to butcher, caping, even make arrangements/suggestions how to transport meat on plane. Usually cheaper to take meat on plane and we ship your gear to you. Several options there.

Anyway, point is, you get to come hunt and not have to worry about the 99 percent of headaches that DIY guys go through. Some guys like the headaches, I salute you as well.

With a proper outfitter you don't need to be in as good of shape as a DIY guy. Hopefully the outfitter you choose knows the animal behavior and habits of the area. Can atleast set you somewhere that is probably going to he productive. Although being in shape is better.
We take folks who are severely out of shape or pretty old. One couple comes every year and they are both almost 80.

The food is a big deal. Sometimes hunting is tough just how it is. The food is controllable. If people can eat good and laugh when hunting is tough. Almost always things change and a couple are harvested. Attitude us a big deal when hunting. If you on your own in tough hunting and your camp us rough. Odds are very good you quit 10 minutes before the miracle.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents hope it helps.

Great rundown. I feel like there are the “all inclusive” guides like yours, which is awesome for some people. Then there are the step above DIY guides who essentially cut out a lot of years on the learning curve and know the terrain. Which is also awesome for some people.

Rarely do I see a post where it’s clearly a bad guide (this post may be one). Typically I think it’s a mismanagement of expectations. Either the outfitter not communicating what’s going to happen and what expectations should be, or the Hunter not asking the right questions to figure it out.

If I were an outfitter I’d go overboard with FAQs, “what to expect”, pictures of animals and amenities, and be extremely clear. Hunters will still get it wrong sometimes

 

[Deadfall]

Great rundown. I feel like there are the “all inclusive” guides like yours, which is awesome for some people. Then there are the step above DIY guides who essentially cut out a lot of years on the learning curve and know the terrain. Which is also awesome for some people.

Rarely do I see a post where it’s clearly a bad guide (this post may be one). Typically I think it’s a mismanagement of expectations. Either the outfitter not communicating what’s going to happen and what expectations should be, or the Hunter not asking the right questions to figure it out.

If I were an outfitter I’d go overboard with FAQs, “what to expect”, pictures of animals and amenities, and be extremely clear. Hunters will still get it wrong sometimes

We also do drop camps. Provide the packing, rest is DIY. Success rates are pretty drastic between guided and unguided. Knowing country and animals is huge.

Yap, expectations are a real bugger...lol...

 

[Fatcamp]

If accurate the behavior of the guide is puzzling to say the least.

 

[ckstites]

We did at DIY in New Mexico in early September and as you said, it was hot, dry and very little water (we found none actually). Ran into a local and he said "you picked a bad year to hunt this unit - elk moved on as there is no water". What unit were you in?

 

[wind gypsy]

Sad thing is a lot of folks can only fork over $$ for an outfitter once or twice in their life and don't think about all that comes along with it. Some things I would consider before dumping good money on an outfitter:

1. What is happening before and after you get there
   1. How much pressure is on the area from previous hunters
   2. How many hunters do they still need to run through after you're gone
   3. How will #1 and #2 above impact your hunt and how it is approached
2. Are there big $ repeat customers with the same outfitter?
   1. Even if not in the outfitters intention, I wouldn't count on getting the same treatment as the rich guy who spends big bucks annually or OutdoorTV Insta hunter guy who is going to promote the business.
3. Who is your actual guide going to be and what are their capabilities?
   1. For in shape and frequently successful do-it-yourselfers, I'd venture to guess that many guides physically can't keep up with your drive for a full week if they are to do it continuously through a season. You have a week to fill a tag and recover, they have to make it through a season.

All of these things have a lot of potential for frustration that a DIY hunt does not and they also don't necessarily make an outfitter "bad".

 

[TheBootBowhunting]

I did 2 separate weeks in Colorado DIY in September - neither one filled a tag, but the 2nd week was a far far better time and if I had a cow tag, I could've filled the freezer. I tried to close the distance on legal raghorn, but couldn't make it happen. I cant see using a guide, Id prefer (to some degree) to make my own mistakes and learn from them. I was definitely out of my element. I did all the research you can possibly do, but nothing prepares you for it besides doing it. And Im not sure having a guide really helps you learn. If you play to hunt elk once, sure, go guided. I plan on doing this yearly. Im already counting down the days till next September. I need to take my lumps, develop wisdom to go with the knowledge as Snyder says.

That being said, I do think going with someone helps. And not just in case you need to get meat off the mountain. It can be overwhelming, and just having someone else there I believe would help. After a few years, going solo would be fine. But not a guide. I cant see ever wanting to use a guide.

Next year, hopefully I can find someone with at least slightly more experience than I have to team up with. Whether its through rokslide, or someone here in Louisiana that goes out west to hunt elk. Worst case, Ill try to convince one of my friends to go to at least have a 2nd brain out there. But Id rather fail and learn than use a guide. And Im not blasting guides at all, theres a lot of good stories out there about guys that used guides. For me, I can listen and learn. I can work my ass off. But ultimately I want to do it as part of a team, or on my own - If I used a guide, Id credit the success to the guide, and not myself.

Hopefully next year things work out better for you. I do appreciate your post, and it sort of reaffirms my thinking that Id prefer not to use an outfitter.

 

[taz_gerstman]

so you are right in that I haven't talked with the outfitter yet but I am working on that now. I wanted to collect all of my thoughts and why I didn't say anything then is because of several reasons. 1. this is his job and I shouldn't have to say anything to him unless I feel that it is to the extreme and 2. one of my downfalls is I am a very very relaxed and easy going guy, so much to the point to where it seems like people can run over me and I wont get bent out of shape about it but that is my fault. I also understand the inability to control external factors and I saw what they were and realized it. I know that is part of hunting. I am not one of those who need my hands held for every little thing. to be honest I was helping out in camp as much as I could. I hate being waited on and regardless if I paid money or not I feel as if though I should be doing something but I do feel that the guide should conform to a certain degree. I just wanted to get everyones ideas on here just to see if what I was thinking was way off.

 

[taz_gerstman]

We did at DIY in New Mexico in early September and as you said, it was hot, dry and very little water (we found none actually). Ran into a local and he said "you picked a bad year to hunt this unit - elk moved on as there is no water". What unit were you in?

I was in unit 6a.

 

[taz_gerstman]

The outfitter owner told us the day we all arrived that they had had a good bow season, a good muzzy season and should be a good rifle season as well. again I understand the external factors but I still think there were other factors that could have been prevented and possibly produced a better hunt even if I didn't harvest anything

 

[AaronMColeman]

We also do drop camps. Provide the packing, rest is DIY. Success rates are pretty drastic between guided and unguided. Knowing country and animals is huge.

Yap, expectations are a real bugger...lol...

Knowing the terrain is so important. I've spent a few years hiking and spending time in the forest I hunt. The two things that have made the biggest difference for me are conditioning and knowledge of terrain. None of the elk I shot would be dead without those two things...guides can help with one, not so much with the other