ELD-X issues

[mxgsfmdpx]

How are you going to talk about this deer without posting a picture? I am joking*, but I would like to see a picture. I love big WT, mainly because I havn't killed 1 over 150". Congrats

A true 150” (not internet 150”) is a really nice whitetail!

I’ll PM you.

 

[igethangry]

Every whitetail I’ve shot with the 143 eldx in 6.5cm was DRT from 100-200 yards. Killed this muley a few weeks ago with the 162 eldx at 3015fps out of a 7rem mag. 1 shot DRT. I like these bullets.

 

[ElPollo]

The informal pile of internet truths and rules includes this general process for on-line communication and its ultimate effect on the internet as a source of information.
1) People will use the internet to post statements based on assumptions without data and call it experience.
2) Assumptions without objective data are also colloquially referred to as feelings. People who question the feelings and statements of others generally ask for data or proof of those statements.
3) The original poster generally replies by restating their feelings because most don’t understand the concept of objective data. They also often react negatively to having their feelings questioned.
4) Frustration generally ensues and additional people weigh in by posting their feelings on the issue.
5) Consequently the internet is simultaneously a source of questionable or flawed information and a group therapy session where everyone talks about their feelings.

 

[Speaks]

One or two guys trying to explain “why the deer they hit perfectly got away” is not data. Any single report of bullet failure brings out other people looking for something to blame other than themselves. And the whole thing snowballs into a reputation that may or may not be deserved. That’s my theory on how these things work.

It’s kind of funny to chart the spread of “gun lore.” All it takes is one authority figure seeking an explanation or excuse for “what went wrong” to condemn whole brands, product lines, etc. for those who respect him.*

Most people don’t know anything about terminal ballistics beyond what they see in advertisements (such as articles in gun magazines or YouTube videos) or what they learned from other hunters. Which is to say, most people don’t know anything about terminal ballistics.

Edit - * this is true of people here on RokSlide too, not just "Fudds" or "ordinary people." This isn't picking on Form, but think how many products have been consigned to the dustbin or sent to the classifieds based on Form's declaration that "x isn't any good." There's a lot of trust in his opinions around here. Trust that I think tends to be deserved since he usually "shows his work" somewhere, even if not everything its own thread.

Dont disagree with any of this and was not claiming it was data, also specified where I heard this so that point would be clear.

Was curious if there was any truth to a very early design that was changed shortly after and if that might be part of the source of the myth of these not working. I have not clue one way or the other.

 

[KHntr]

That brings to mind one of the strangest kills I ever witnessed. My cousin shot a small muley at about 400yds with a Barnes in my -06. We watched the deer stumble a couple of times and fall over.

When we got down and started skinning the only sign that I could find that the bullet contacted the deer was a very light graze on the brisket. Wasn’t a drop of blood anywhere. The bullet never entered the thoracic cavity or made any kind of a hole but that deer died like it had been heart shot.

At home when we started butchering the heart we found the tiniest little spot of bloodshot in the heart, like way smaller than a pin head. I think a tiny fragment split off from the graze and made that little micro-channel and the heart lost pressure. Crazy

When I was 12 or 13 I killed one exactly the same way with a 100gr psp from my 6mm Remington at about the same distance.

Shot, and a half second later he jumped straight up before any of the other deer did so dad called the hit.
Tracked him in the snow, and as we walked around a big spruce dad finally saw a drop of blood at about the same time as I jumped out of my skin because we’d walked past him laying dead beside my feet. Bullet went into the skin and hit tallow below the brisket, didn’t touch bone or anything. Heart had a bruise on the very tip though.

Remember that like it was yesterday, and not almost 40 years ago.

 

[Harvey_NW]

People have issues with ELDX bullets.

Are they issues, or is it that they didn't perform how the shooter expected? How can you call a jacket and core separation from a cup and core bullet an "issue" when you're able to pull it out of the dead animal?

Those are rhetorical.

 

[alexnelon]

Are they issues, or is it that they didn't perform how the shooter expected? How can you call a jacket and core separation from a cup and core bullet an "issue" when you're able to pull it out of the dead animal?

Those are rhetorical.

It takes a borderline clinical mental disconnect to pull a bullet out of a dead animal and complain that it didn't perform.

 

[Harvey_NW]

It takes a borderline clinical mental disconnect to pull a bullet out of a dead animal and complain that it didn't perform.

Pure irony!

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

It takes a borderline clinical mental disconnect to pull a bullet out of a dead animal and complain that it didn't perform.

But but… it doesn’t look like the pictures from the magazines or internet!

 

[HunterGatherer]

If “ it died” and “how fast” are your only metrics for assessing the performance of a bullet, we’re shooting at different bullseyes. You’re hitting yours and I’m hitting mine. Carry on.

When one side of the argument just continues to ridicule the minority opinion, using words like “ silly, stupid, crazy, borderline mental disconnect”. They always attack a person’s credibility, experience, education level, kill count, etc etc instead of taking the observations made by other hunters at face value. It’s a bad look.

Observations from the field are real data. Not conclusive studies, but raw data - But it gets called “feelings” to minimize and discredit the people who post it. There’s an echo chamber here that won’t tolerate a disturbance.

Like I said, I won’t be in the firearms realm submitting any more observations from the field. You’ve got your data and the science is settled in your mind(s). Nothing new.

Nothing personal, I’m sure all the guys in here are good guys. I hope you all have great success in the field. I enjoy reading your posts and seeing the pics from your hunting adventures. Keep your powder dry and watch your top knot

 

[atmat]

They always attack a person’s credibility, experience,

And yet:

I’ve been trashing these bullets in multiple threads

I also have had erratic bullet behavior from them in my limited experience.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Observations from the field are real data. Not conclusive studies, but raw data -

Agreed.

But it gets called “feelings” to minimize and discredit the people who post it. There’s an echo chamber here that won’t tolerate a disturbance.

Disagree. There is a difference in perception and reality. Your perception is that they can have "issues" and you don't like the performance, or what the end result looks like. The reality is typically a massive amount of trauma and likely quick incapacitation. This is where you're getting pushback, no one cares that you don't like them, but trying justify your opinion as fact about how they function is contradicting.

Still a small sample size so take it for what it's worth, but the last 3 mule deer bucks we've shot with 143 ELD-X's have had consistent performance from 100-330 yards with full pass throughs and chew can sized exits. Not one made it more than 40 yards and wasn't dead within about 5 seconds. Little to no meat damage on broadside/slightly quartering behind the shoulder shots. Many coyotes have had the same outcome as well.

 

[bmart2622]

I wish people would realize that you can be "pro" something without justifying it by being "anti" another. You can be pro monolithic bullets and not be anti cup and core. You can be pro magnum caliber without being anti small caliber. You can be pro mule without being anti horse. Like what you like and use what you like without claiming everything else sucks.

 

[Lowedown]

I have found a great balance of performance with my ELD-X bullets at different ranges and conditions. I shoot that same bullet out of a 7 rem mag at similar speed, as well as the 143 out of a 6.5 cm. Taking deer and elk with both.

I will respectfully recommend a change in shot placement: when a buck is quartered well to you, aim at the crease in front of the shoulder where neck meets it. This will put the bullet through behind the shoulder bones and either right into the vitals or into the spinal column of the neck. Lights out
I witnessed this shot placement on a big Whitetail buck with a 243. Butt dropped, buck flipped over backwards, horns stuck in the dirt, legs pointed in the air! looked like a cartoon LOL

 

[LCV]

Observations from the field are real data. Not conclusive studies, but raw data - But it gets called “feelings” to minimize and discredit the people who post it. There’s an echo chamber here that won’t tolerate a disturbance.

Like I said, I won’t be in the firearms realm submitting any more observations from the field. You’ve got your data and the science is settled in your mind(s). Nothing new.

Nothing personal, I’m sure all the guys in here are good guys. I hope you all have great success in the field. I enjoy reading your posts and seeing the pics from your hunting adventures. Keep your powder dry and watch your top knot

A bit dramatic there mister martyr. People here love observations from the field. There are several very large threads here for that purpose. Skimming through this thread, it doesn’t really look like you provided any other than “inconsistent”.

 

[Thegman]

Are they issues, or is it that they didn't perform how the shooter expected? How can you call a jacket and core separation from a cup and core bullet an "issue" when you're able to pull it out of the dead animal?

Those are rhetorical.

I think about the only argument would be that the bullet didn't perform "as designed". I.e. their interlock ring didn't retain the core. Doesn't mean it would fail to work perfectly well. Who knows, maybe even better?

 

[HunterGatherer]

Agreed.


Disagree. There is a difference in perception and reality. Your perception is that they can have "issues" and you don't like the performance, or what the end result looks like. The reality is typically a massive amount of trauma and likely quick incapacitation. This is where you're getting pushback, no one cares that you don't like them, but trying justify your opinion as fact about how they function is contradicting.

Still a small sample size so take it for what it's worth, but the last 3 mule deer bucks we've shot with 143 ELD-X's have had consistent performance from 100-330 yards with full pass throughs and chew can sized exits. Not one made it more than 40 yards and wasn't dead within about 5 seconds. Little to no meat damage on broadside/slightly quartering behind the shoulder shots. Many coyotes have had the same outcome as well.

Okay, one last post just for the poor souls who might stumble upon this thread in the future. It seems that the consensus among the ELD supporters is that I/we (the people reporting issues) don’t understand how bullets work and are expecting something that we shouldn’t from a specific bullet. Let’s take a Quick Look at that…

Many expectations probably came from Hornady’s own marketing and product description…




Then people get in this thread and start talking about ELDs with core separation, over expansion, and inconsistency both in factory ammo quality control and terminal performance. Those are “the issues”.

But then the experts hop on to say “ that’s not how bullets work. ELDs are performing exactly as they’re supposed to”, ironically citing that core separation and explosion is what actually kills animals, because of MASSIVE TRAUMA. Which is true of we’re talking about varmint bullets. Here is a standard description of varmint bullets …


This description describes what the authorities here are calling “good terminal performance “ for medium to large game. MASSIVE TRAUMA is a key feature for some hunters. They love to see devastating carnage created by their chosen bullet and show pics online “ Look how I blew up this deer ! These bullets are awesome!” That’s not the only way to kill something quickly and humanely.

The reality is, Hornady’s marketing for this bullet as an “all ranges” hunting bullet is BS and it’s basically a varmint bullet marketed to long range shooters. They said no core separation, you guys say core separation is normal. Now tell me again how I’m the one with unfounded expectations (that was rhetorical).

So do they kill stuff ? Sure, but that’s not even the question here. Do they do what they say they do and do they do it consistently and reliably ? No, they don’t. And you don’t need to shoot 10,000 of them into animals to see the inconsistency because it shows up very fast.

Stop trying to misconstrue what I have said. I have not tried to “ justify my opinion as fact”. The results ( bullets I have pulled out of animals and compared with other users) are data and not “feelings” or “opinions”. There are documented cases here and in other threads of bad quality control, strange terminal performance that contradicts the stated properties of the bullet, and more…

I’m past the point in my life where I care about being “right” on the internet. It’s not worth the time or effort. I’m here to share stories and experiences with others. Don’t try to mischaracterize me as a pot stirrer. If my experience with these bullets is offensive to some, I’m sorry… but I’m not wrong.

 

[eoperator]

I’m past the point in my life where I care about being “right” on the internet. It’s not worth the time or effort.

Interesting.

 

[bmart2622]

Interesting.

Exactly!!! As he comes back to try to get the last word!!!

 

[atmat]

but I’m not wrong.

You are and that’s okay, chief. I’m glad you can read the box, though.

Again, as you stated, you don’t actually have experience with the bullet.

It’s okay to talk out your butt. Just expect to be called on it