ELD-X issues

[HunterGatherer]

Ok. You need to “buy” into anything- actually go kill 30+ big game animals with the same rifle, at nearly the same ranges with ELD-X’ and 30+ with Barnes TTSX. Record animal reaction, how long after the shot they were on their feet, and total distance traveled.

30 seconds is hundreds of yards of potential movement. Average distance traveled after impact is double with concentration mono’s than it is rapidly upsetting lead core bullets.

You want to see the skulls ? The bloody holes ? Maybe you think I’m an inexperienced hunter or something…

I have done what you said, killed dozens of animals with my grandfathers rifle that has been killing shit in front of me and in my hands through a dozen different hand loaded cartridges since the 60’s. And I’ve killed dozens of them with a bow and even a few with the most primitive weapon of all, the cursed muzzleloader. I saw your kill pics and I respect your hunting experience, but I cried for the shoulder meat.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t think anyone has said a highly frangable bullet doesn’t kill, they just make a absolute mess and distribute lead in the meat, and have inconsistent performance overall

The only “consistent” performance that most care about is “killing quickly”. And ironically, in legitimate testing, by far they highest failure rates are from conventional monolithic bullets.

 

[HunterGatherer]

That’s right- all you’ve been doing “trashing” in every thread you can- not learning, not gaining or sharing knowledge.

You should listen to my older albums…

 

[Formidilosus]

You want to see the skulls ? The bloody holes ? Maybe you think I’m an inexperienced hunter or something…

I have done what you said, killed dozens of animals with my grandfathers rifle that has been killing shit in front of me and in my hands through a dozen different hand loaded cartridges since the 60’s. And I’ve killed dozens of them with a bow and even a few with the most primitive weapon of all, the cursed muzzleloader. I saw your kill pics and I respect your hunting experience, but I cried for the shoulder

The above posts has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Have you done the below? If so, can you please share the information/data?

go kill 30+ big game animals with the same rifle, at nearly the same ranges with ELD-X’ and 30+ with Barnes TTSX. Record animal reaction, how long after the shot they were on their feet, and total distance traveled.

 

[HunterGatherer]

The above posts has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Have you done the below? If so, can you please share the information/data?

I get that you’re an authority figure around here, but that doesn’t mean the “test” you are referencing is the only way to judge one’s knowledge on the subject. You set up an experiment that can’t possibly be executed and use it to say I don’t know what I’m talking about …even though I have the real world experience to say something valid ? Feels kind of gatekeeper-ey…

 

[Formidilosus]

I get that you’re an authority figure around here,

I do not care. This is deflecting and a fallacy.
You are making statements that are untrue, and “trashing” as your goal.

but that doesn’t mean the “test” you are referencing is the only way to judge one’s knowledge on the subject. You set up an experiment that can’t possibly be executed and use it to say I don’t know what I’m talking about …even though I have the real world experience to say something valid ? Feels kind of gatekeeper-ey…

You’re avoiding the question and answer. What I suggested has been done repeatedly by multiple different people/places. I do not generally talk about bullets until I have seen 30-50 different animals shot with them, and usually also with real terminal ballistics testing.

It the only way to get real information and not assumptions.

 

[HunterGatherer]

The only “consistent” performance that most care about is “killing quickly”. And ironically, in legitimate testing, by far they highest failure rates are from conventional monolithic bullets.

This defines the difference between your thinking and mine right here. Killing quickly is not the #1 concern of every hunter. There are other aspects to administering a clean kill. Some guys are fine with blowing up a large portion of the edible meat of an animal and others are not. I’m in the latter camp. We’re okay with the animal running off a little ways and losing blood pressure, ultimately losing consciousness… and it sounds like you are in the former camp that wants maximum CNS shock and DRT but are willing to throw away a fair portion of the animal to get it. We’ll have to agree to disagree because you’re not changing my mind on that one.

 

[LCV]

This defines the difference between your thinking and mine right here. Killing quickly is not the #1 concern of every hunter. There are other aspects to administering a clean kill. Some guys are fine with blowing up a large portion of the edible meat of an animal and others are not. I’m in the latter camp. We’re okay with the animal running off a little ways and losing blood pressure, ultimately losing consciousness… and it sounds like you are in the former camp that wants maximum CNS shock and DRT but are willing to throw away a fair portion of the animal to get it. We’ll have to agree to disagree because you’re not changing my mind on that one.

No one wants to change your mind. Your comments seemed to imply they weren’t good at killing animals. They are. Shoot what you want, no one cares.

 

[Helislacker]

This defines the difference between your thinking and mine right here. Killing quickly is not the #1 concern of every hunter. There are other aspects to administering a clean kill. Some guys are fine with blowing up a large portion of the edible meat of an animal and others are not. I’m in the latter camp. We’re okay with the animal running off a little ways and losing blood pressure, ultimately losing consciousness… and it sounds like you are in the former camp that wants maximum CNS shock and DRT but are willing to throw away a fair portion of the animal to get it. We’ll have to agree to disagree because you’re not changing my mind on that one.

I’ve heard this before and it’s silly. If we actually measured the total pounds of meat lost due to animals not being recovered after being shot by bullets that kill poorly from rifles that are difficult to shoot well (primarily due to recoil) vs. the pounds of meat lost due to wound channel size in animals shot by ELD’s, TMK’s etc. the former would almost certainly be orders of magnitude higher. It’s a stupid argument on the whole, but it sounds like you have a process and system that works for you.

 

[HunterGatherer]

I’ve heard this before and it’s silly. If we actually measured the total pounds of meat lost due to animals not being recovered after being shot by bullets that kill poorly from rifles that are difficult to shoot well (primarily due to recoil) vs. the pounds of meat lost due to wound channel size in animals shot by ELD’s, TMK’s etc. the former would almost certainly be orders of magnitude higher. It’s a stupid argument on the whole, but it sounds like you have a process and system that works for you.

I don’t think it’s “silly” or “stupid” and As you said, I have a system that works. Your camp feels like your system works for you. I didn’t come in here to change people’s minds. I commented in a thread started by someone else who had a weird experience with the ELDX, I also have had erratic bullet behavior from them in my limited experience. Others have confirmed our experience.

The other guy tried to make it sound like no one had a right to give their own feedback about the bullet in question and others jumped in to defend the bullet by questioning our credibility, the accuracy and honesty of our opinions based on our own experiences and “research”.

It should be okay for people to discuss why they like or dislike different aspects of hunting and gear. That’s why we’re here.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t think it’s “silly” or “stupid” and As you said, I have a system that works. Your camp feels like your system works for you. I didn’t come in here to change people’s minds. I commented in a thread started by someone else who had a weird experience with the ELDX, I also have had erratic bullet behavior from them in my limited experience. Others have confirmed our experience.

The other guy tried to make it sound like no one had a right to give their own feedback about the bullet in question and others jumped in to defend the bullet by questioning our credibility, the accuracy and honesty of our opinions based on our own experiences and “research”.

There is a significant portion of this forum, and in fact what it was founded on- that want “data”, not feelings.

It should be okay for people to discuss why they like or dislike different aspects of hunting and gear. That’s why we’re here.

By your own admission you weren’t here to discuss anything. You have went all over the board “trashing” bullets.

 

[HunterGatherer]

There is a significant portion of this forum, and in fact what it was founded on- that want “data”, not feelings.

Well then if the significant portion and the founders want to remove me from the community for my “feelings” confused as data, let them.

By your own admission you weren’t here to discuss anything. You have went all over the board “trashing” bullets.

“All over the board” - maybe click on my profile and see what threads I have started here and what my comments are about in others threads before you pass judgement on me based on a couple comments you took offense to.

People have issues with ELDX bullets. This is the thread where we came to discuss it. If you’re just here to spread facts you’re taking a rather combative approach.

 

[atmat]

Sorry I’ve been trashing these bullets in multiple threads

I also have had erratic bullet behavior from them in my limited experience.

I do find it interesting that you’re “trashing these bullets in multiple threads” when you have “limited experience” with them. Might this explain why people are pushing back?

 

[bmart2622]

Youre wrong here from the start. If you're expecting an ELdX to retain weight and mushroom like a picture from a Nosler ad then you dont understand terminal ballistics and how they work. If you dont understand that then you probably aren't informed enough to say a bullet is inconsistent and fails.

 

[HunterGatherer]

Youre wrong here from the start. If you're expecting an ELdX to retain weight and mushroom like a picture from a Nosler ad then you dont understand terminal ballistics and how they work. If you dont understand that then you probably aren't informed enough to say a bullet is inconsistent and fails.

You’re right. I knew I was picking a less than ideal bullet for my application - a clean kill with minimal meat loss and lead contamination. But I didn’t base my expectations on a Nosler box, I based it on the Hornaday box that the bullets came in, which advertise this …

And also from all the support for this bullet on RS. I should have known better based on my past experiences. I disagree that I’m “ probably not informed enough to say a bullet is inconsistent”. My first had experience and feedback from other shooters this Fall about this bullet have been enough to prove that it is inconsistent enough for me not to shoot it.

I’m going to leave this one alone now. You guys shoot these bullets all you want. I’m going back to killing lots of animals with really “small” wound channels and minimal loss of meat, even if it means I have to use some tracking skills. In the future I’ll try to stay out of the hallowed halls of the firearms forum and keep my experiences to the hunting threads and meat care forum.

 

[atmat]

You’re right. I knew I was picking a less than ideal bullet for my application - a clean kill with minimal meat loss and lead contamination. But I didn’t base my expectations on a Nosler box, I based it on the Hornaday box that the bullets came in, which advertise this …View attachment 965143

And also from all the support for this bullet on RS. I should have known better based on my past experiences. I disagree that I’m “ probably not informed enough to say a bullet is inconsistent”. My first had experience and feedback from other shooters this Fall about this bullet have been enough to prove that it is inconsistent enough for me not to shoot it.

I’m going to leave this one alone now. You guys shoot these bullets all you want. I’m going back to killing lots of animals with really “small” wound channels and minimal loss of meat, even if it means I have to use some tracking skills. In the future I’ll try to stay out of the hallowed halls of the firearms forum and keep my experiences to the hunting threads and meat care forum.

You can and should post where you want. That’s not an issue. Just expect to be called out when you say you’re “trashing these bullets in multiple threads” despite having “limited experience” with them.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Youre wrong here from the start. If you're expecting an ELdX to retain weight and mushroom like a picture from a Nosler ad then you dont understand terminal ballistics and how they work. If you dont understand that then you probably aren't informed enough to say a bullet is inconsistent and fails.

This the crux of it right here.

A fundamental lack of understanding of what actually kills animals quickly rears its head very often in “hunting talks”.

Recent example of hundreds I’ve been a part of…

A couple nights ago I killed what is likely to be a record book whitetail after a few different folks have green scored. It’s a small town where I am at, and word has gotten around town from cousins, friends, you name it. Several people have come from as far as an hour to see the head, blah blah blah.

I recovered the bullet in the offside hide and have it here. When asked what bullet and cartridge was used on a once in a lifetime “big buck” like that, 90% of them stood there dumb founded that I didn’t use a “big tough 30 cal” for a “deer like that.”

3 or 4 of them said “I’d never use a bullet like that, or one that small” even though they were staring at a dead deers face, a deer that only went 20 yards after impact and died.

So even though the proof is staring at them dead in the face, they still think it should have been shot with something different.

 

[Speaks]

I have never shot an animal with an ELDX though they shoot well out of both guns I have tried them in and they are what I have set up for both of my rifles that do not have ELDM options available in factory loads. Ive seen sufficient evidence on here that they will do what I want/need.

That said is there any truth in the story that very early versions has performance issues? I watched a long thread on another forumn where the general feeling was that the very early ELDX in 6.5CM would either pencil hole or grenade a decent percentage of the time. It was also generally felt this was short lived and the bullet is a great performer now. I have no clue and dont think any of these guys had enough data to draw conclusions, just curious if there maybe were some very early issues that created this persistent impression?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I have never shot an animal with an ELDX though they shoot well out of both guns I have tried them in and they are what I have set up for both of my rifles that do not have ELDM options available in factory loads. Ive seen sufficient evidence on here that they will do what I want/need.

That said is there any truth in the story that very early versions has performance issues? I watched a long thread on another forumn where the general feeling was that the very early ELDX in 6.5CM would either pencil hole or grenade a decent percentage of the time. It was also generally felt this was short lived and the bullet is a great performer now. I have no clue and dont think any of these guys had enough data to draw conclusions, just curious if there maybe were some very early issues that created this persistent impression?

One or two guys trying to explain “why the deer they hit perfectly got away” is not data. Any single report of bullet failure brings out other people looking for something to blame other than themselves. And the whole thing snowballs into a reputation that may or may not be deserved. That’s my theory on how these things work.

It’s kind of funny to chart the spread of “gun lore.” All it takes is one authority figure seeking an explanation or excuse for “what went wrong” to condemn whole brands, product lines, etc. for those who respect him.*

Most people don’t know anything about terminal ballistics beyond what they see in advertisements (such as articles in gun magazines or YouTube videos) or what they learned from other hunters. Which is to say, most people don’t know anything about terminal ballistics.

Edit - * this is true of people here on RokSlide too, not just "Fudds" or "ordinary people." This isn't picking on Form, but think how many products have been consigned to the dustbin or sent to the classifieds based on Form's declaration that "x isn't any good." There's a lot of trust in his opinions around here. Trust that I think tends to be deserved since he usually "shows his work" somewhere, even if not everything its own thread.

 

[HuntHarder]

This the crux of it right here.

A fundamental lack of understanding of what actually kills animals quickly rears its head very often in “hunting talks”.

Recent example of hundreds I’ve been a part of…

A couple nights ago I killed what is likely to be a record book whitetail after a few different folks have green scored. It’s a small town where I am at, and word has gotten around town from cousins, friends, you name it. Several people have come from as far as an hour to see the head, blah blah blah.

I recovered the bullet in the offside hide and have it here. When asked what bullet and cartridge was used on a once in a lifetime “big buck” like that, 90% of them stood there dumb founded that I didn’t use a “big tough 30 cal” for a “deer like that.”

3 or 4 of them said “I’d never use a bullet like that, or one that small” even though they were staring at a dead deers face, a deer that only went 20 yards after impact and died.

So even though the proof is staring at them dead in the face, they still think it should have been shot with something different.

How are you going to talk about this deer without posting a picture? I am joking*, but I would like to see a picture. I love big WT, mainly because I havn't killed 1 over 150". Congrats