ELD-M, ELD-X, TMK, Berger: Which reliably exits?

[ThatDUDE]

I was wondering out of the ELD-M, ELD-X, TMK, and Berger bullets which caliber and bullet reliably exit?

I am sold on the performance and trauma of match bullets. However I also like the idea of an exit for an additional blood trail.

I see lots of guys killing animals with the 22 cal and 6mm. I also see many of them post there was no exit and not much blood at times.

Is there a combo that gives the best of both worlds?

Educate me please.

 

[grfox92]

I was wondering out of the ELD-M, ELD-X, TMK, and Berger bullets which caliber and bullet reliably exit?

I am sold on the performance and trauma of match bullets. However I also like the idea of an exit for an additional blood trail.

I see lots of guys killing animals with the 22 cal and 6mm. I also see many of them post there was no exit and not much blood at times.

Is there a combo that gives the best of both worlds?

Educate me please.

If what you're looking for is consistent exits in small caliber rifles, the bullets you mentioned are not the ones you want.

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[hereinaz]

Critters die because their brain shuts down. Either a central nervous system shot, head/neck, OR they loose enough blood.

I don’t want an exit. I want that bullet to fragment and cut as much tissue as possible.

That is it. If a bullet exits then you are keeping some of it together. Less tissue gets cut.

When a bullet fragments and turns lungs into jelly, the critter is going maybe 50 yards before their brain shuts down cause blood stops pumping. You don’t need tracking. You don’t need a blood trail.

The best case is the most trauma possible. Choosing a bullet to exit only reduces the possibility of maximum trauma.

Now, that said I have had Berger exists out to 760 yards on deer and 500 on elk with my 7 mag shooting 180 grain Berger VLD going 3050 fps.

So, if you want exits, 7mm Berger bullets have for me inside 500 yards on prettt much everything. And, past 700 on deer. It was too much, so I got a 25 cal for deer.

Here is the exit of a 133 Berger going 3200 fps at 100ish yards on a small caribou. I saw blood and chunks fly when it hit him.

 

[hereinaz]

I don’t know if the picture makes it clear, but that’s lung that got blown from his inside to his outside.

 

[ThatDUDE]

Critters die because their brain shuts down. Either a central nervous system shot, head/neck, OR they loose enough blood.

I don’t want an exit. I want that bullet to fragment and cut as much tissue as possible.

That is it. If a bullet exits then you are keeping some of it together. Less tissue gets cut.

When a bullet fragments and turns lungs into jelly, the critter is going maybe 50 yards before their brain shuts down cause blood stops pumping. You don’t need tracking. You don’t need a blood trail.

The best case is the most trauma possible. Choosing a bullet to exit only reduces the possibility of maximum trauma.

That all makes sense. I just have minimal experience with the bullets mentioned. My buddies wife killed a bull with my 6.5 shooting the 140 ELDM. The bull took 3 rounds and took one step. No tracking was needed.

This year my friend shot a spike elk with his .270 and the 145 ELD-X. I wasn’t there for the shot just the pack out. He ended up having to follow a blood trail through some thick Cedars and put a second round into the elk to get it down. He wasn’t sure where his first shot impacted so I assume it was a poor hit.

His scenario, a poor initial shot, makes me think a blood trail would be beneficial.

But I have also come to like the increased shoot ability of the smaller calibers.

 

[CMF]

This year my friend shot a spike elk with his .270 and the 145 ELD-X. I wasn’t there for the shot just the pack out. He ended up having to follow a blood trail through some thick Cedars and put a second round into the elk to get it down. He wasn’t sure where his first shot impacted so I assume it was a poor hit.

His scenario, a poor initial shot, makes me think a blood trail would be beneficial.

So I'm assuming he did get a pass-through with the 145 ELD-X?

We'll be shooting the same .270 and 145 ELD-X next month on an elk hunt for my 10yo.

 

[ThatDUDE]

I honestly don’t know if the round exited. By the time I got to him to help pack it out, he had half the elk quartered. He doesn’t geek out over wound channel’s like I do.

I just know the 145 ELD-X left enough of a blood trail he was able to get back onto the elk after losing him.

 

[hereinaz]

Right on.

7 mm is where I drew the line on size to still keep shootability high. In a 12 lb rifle with suppressor, I can spot my shots at 400 and beyond reliably.

If the most a Hunter can shoot reliably is a 6.5, then stop there.

I really like the .257 133 for deer at long range and my 7mm 180 for elk.

 

[hereinaz]

I honestly don’t know if the round exited. By the time I got to him to help pack it out, he had half the elk quartered. He doesn’t geek out over wound channel’s like I do.

I just know the 145 ELD-X left enough of a blood trail he was able to get back onto the elk after losing him.

ELDx is designed to hold together like a hunting bullet, so it is more likely to get a pass through.

 

[Felix40]

I just think it’s so much easier to watch them fall than always following blood trails.

Eldx does that for me.

I used to get a lot of exits with a 200gr eldx from a 300 wsm but I’m pretty much convinced that’s overkill for everything.

 

[The Guide]

The true answer is none of them. When shooting bullets into game, nothing is a guarantee. You will even on occasion have fmj that will not exit or they will tumble and fragment even though that isn't there design.

Jay

 

[Mike D Texas]

None of those mentioned will guarantee an exit and likely won’t most times. The ELDX will have the best chance at milder velocities.

I, like you prefer an exit. The old “dump all the energy in the animal” is old wives tale hogwash. By the time a bullet exits it’s done most if not all of it potential tissue crushing damage. It’s not going to do any more damage by staying inside the animal.


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[hereinaz]

None of those mentioned will guarantee an exit and likely won’t most times. The ELDX will have the best chance at milder velocities.

I, like you prefer an exit. The old “dump all the energy in the animal” is old wives tale hogwash. By the time a bullet exits it’s done most if not all of it potential tissue crushing damage. It’s not going to do any more damage by staying inside the animal.


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It’s not about “dumping energy, it’s fragmenting and maximum tissue damage. When a bullet does fragments, any one piece is less likely to exit.

 

[Lou270]

As others noted, the eldx is best bet of the group you mentioned since it has a tapered jacket to control expansion.

In my experience the tipped / bonded bullets like accubond and scirocco and nosler partition are the best comprimise for pretty good wounding and via limited fragmentation/expansion but maintaining a good base for deep penetration. Something like a hammer may be in same bucket.

Lou

 

[VAHunter01]

I see more exits, and prefer on game performance of Lapua Scenars to all of those.

I’ve used 105, 123, 139, 155 and 180. I’d say exits north of 90% of the time on whitetail.

3 155s and 1 180 have given me exits on elk.

 

[madcalfe]

I've taken quite a few mountain goats now with 178gr eldx outta my 300wsm and all have been dead in their tracks. Shot placement is key. I wouldn't be shooting at a bull elk in the shoulder with one though. I switch to nosler accubonds for elk hunting but also I know most of the time my shots will be 50-100 yards on elk

 

[DiabeticKripple]

If you want best of best worlds, a partition would be the choice.

Or a bonded bullet like the Accubond, ABLR, Terminal Ascent etc

 

[Mike D Texas]

It’s not about “dumping energy, it’s fragmenting and maximum tissue damage. When a bullet does fragments, any one piece is less likely to exit.

Most of the frangible type target bullets leave fragments so small it’s not going to contribute much if any to additional bleeding. The concussive wave that destroys tissue is what is doing the killing. It could also be argued that a bullet that mushrooms and has sharp petals would provide more blood loss that fragmenting.

The fracturing bullets like Hammers, Cutting Edge, Badlands and Lehigh actually produce fragments large enough to actually do something.


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[TxxAgg]

Tagged for the lesson that's coming.

 

[hereinaz]

Most of the frangible type target bullets leave fragments so small it’s not going to contribute much if any to additional bleeding. The concussive wave that destroys tissue is what is doing the killing. It could also be argued that a bullet that mushrooms and has sharp petals would provide more blood loss that fragmenting.

The fracturing bullets like Hammers, Cutting Edge, Badlands and Lehigh actually produce fragments large enough to actually do something.


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The concussive wave, temporary wound channel, or technically, the temporary cavitation of soft tissue doesn’t cause any permanent damage that would lead to death unless it shocks the central nervous system.

I will have to pull together the research, but trauma room surgeons, technical reviews and scholarly research is that skin and soft tissue is so flexible that it just stretches and returns to its shape without damage.

Size doesn’t matter when velocity is high. Think about how much energy it takes to break apart the bullet into tiny pieces, and that is happening inside soft tissue.

It is counterintuitive that smaller particles cause more damage, but you have to consider the fact that they don’t immediately break into the smallest particles.

Ballistic jelly is just like soft tissue. It expands and then contracts. If you examine the jelly, only the jelly cut by the bullet is damaged. The rest is intact.

Blood shot meat is just bruised as if it got punched hard. I fell on my leg carrying a 100 pound pack and it was blood shot and sore, but there was no chance of death from it.

At first, the match bullet is breaking apart into large petals and pieces like the copper bullets, then breaking apart more and more.

As it breaks apart like this, ALL the tissue is smashed and cut. A copper bullet breaks apart and the petals don’t break up again.

Think about any bullet that smashes the shoulder blade and carries all the bone fragments that cause more damage. The more pieces the better.

It’s not that copper bullets or other bullets don’t kill, it’s that they operate differently on the soft tissue. Choosing them for a personal reason or legal reason like lead free, won’t ever get a side eye from me.

One could make the arguments, and many do make the arguments that you make. I believed and made the arguments too. I had to be convinced that it wasn’t accurate.

In the end, I am a “show me the score board” guy. The 77 gr Sierra TMK thread was enough to settle the question once and for all in my mind about what damage a match bullet does.