Educate me on this infamous thing called a Carbon Ring.

[Tanner]

I have no dog in the fight as I like to observe objectivity, but it is interesting that something that can be observed clearly with a bore scope causes such a huge amount of arguing and wiener measuring.

So many factors at play in carbon rings and if or when they ever cause an issue, that it seems like it would make sense to ignore them if they aren’t giving you problems, and address them if they do.

 

[slm9s]

I shoot dozens of rifles and rarely clean them. I'd never had a carbon ring cause a problem until 1.5 years ago. The rifle is a custom 8 twist 7saum on a 700, I shoot 197s with RL26 (common theme?). It shot AMAZING until rounds started to get hard to chamber and then wouldn't chamber at all. Borescope showed a large carbon ring. I've tried several times to get the ring out, but several products have been unsuccessful (including electric drills being used!). I might have to try the hand-turned throater.

 

[Formidilosus]

An actual HELPFUL response would be to outline your theories on what can cause it (or not, can’t tell if you even think it’s real). Instead you just brag about rounds down range and problems you don’t have.

COOL COOL COOL

What? I have stated repeatedly for years on threads what causes it.

Minimal spec chambers
Short throats
Minimally resized cases
Excessive trimming of cases
Loading bullets into, or close to lands
Loading to “pressure signs” (aka hot)
Etc, etc.


Just because you your rifle/barrel came from a “known” shop, or is supposed to be a good prefit- does not mean it doesn’t have all or some of those issues. If you are having problems- you can BS yourself that “it just happens, or go through that list above and find the cause(s).

 

[HighUintas]

What? I have stated repeatedly for years on threads what causes it.

Minimal spec chambers
Short throats
Minimally resized cases
Excessive trimming of cases
Loading bullets into, or close to lands
Loading to “pressure signs” (aka hot)
Etc, etc.


Just because you your rifle/barrel came from a “known” shop, or is supposed to be a good prefit- does not mean it doesn’t have all or some of those issues. If you are having problems- you can BS yourself that “it just happens, or go through that list above and find the cause(s).

Aside from what you list, have you shot rifles at different firing schedules or witnessed it, to know if firing schedule could have any impact on carbon ring formation?

I don't know about the carbon in rifle barrels, but as a comparison (may or may not be valid due to different scenario), you can burn off the carbon in an oven with a cleaning cycle at 550F or whatever temp that is, and all the soot that accumulates on the ceiling in a brick wood oven will burn off when the hearth hits about 1000F. So, I'd think there would be a temperature in the bore at which you'd burn that ring out of your firing schedule is fast enough.

Sure, there's other factors that would be a bigger issue like tight throats and chambers. But this could be another factor in a person not seeing it happen

 

[RyanT26]

What? I have stated repeatedly for years on threads what causes it.

Minimal spec chambers
Short throats
Minimally resized cases
Excessive trimming of cases
Loading bullets into, or close to lands
Loading to “pressure signs” (aka hot)
Etc, etc.


Just because you your rifle/barrel came from a “known” shop, or is supposed to be a good prefit- does not mean it doesn’t have all or some of those issues. If you are having problems- you can BS yourself that “it just happens, or go through that list above and find the cause(s).

I’m sure you’ve stated somewhere but what is your shoulder bump when resizing brass?

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m sure you’ve stated somewhere but what is your shoulder bump when resizing brass?

I don’t measure it, nor care. Full resize with cam over on press.

 

[Formidilosus]

Aside from what you list, have you shot rifles at different firing schedules or witnessed it, to know if firing schedule could have any impact on carbon ring formation?

I don't know about the carbon in rifle barrels, but as a comparison (may or may not be valid due to different scenario), you can burn off the carbon in an oven with a cleaning cycle at 550F or whatever temp that is, and all the soot that accumulates on the ceiling in a brick wood oven will burn off when the hearth hits about 1000F. So, I'd think there would be a temperature in the bore at which you'd burn that ring out of your firing schedule is fast enough.

Sure, there's other factors that would be a bigger issue like tight throats and chambers. But this could be another factor in a person not seeing it happen

Do you think normal shooting of bolt actions is burning off carbon?

But to answer your question I think: 300 rums, 30-378’s, 6UM’s, etc aren’t being shot scorching hot normally.

 

[mtnbound]

What? I have stated repeatedly for years on threads what causes it.

Minimal spec chambers
Short throats
Minimally resized cases
Excessive trimming of cases
Loading bullets into, or close to lands
Loading to “pressure signs” (aka hot)
Etc, etc.


Just because you your rifle/barrel came from a “known” shop, or is supposed to be a good prefit- does not mean it doesn’t have all or some of those issues. If you are having problems- you can BS yourself that “it just happens, or go through that list above and find the cause(s).

Based on my experience and what folks have said in this string, it sure seems to me that the cartridge's construction has greater potential to be the issue, and if one had a chamber or throat out of spec, it would be compounded, but out of curiosity, how often have you seen a chamber or throat out of spec?

 

[Formidilosus]

Based on my experience and what folks have said in this string, it sure seems to me that the cartridge's construction has greater potential to be the issue, and if one had a chamber or throat out of spec, it would be compounded, but out of curiosity, how often have you seen a chamber or throat out of spec?

With my rifles? Never. But I am picky about who does my stuff. I have seen one tikka that maybe, potentially has a chamber problem. I have seen a bunch- like a large percentage of “custom” rifles and barrels with the chamber and throat issues I stated. And crooked chambers.

There are a bunch of messed up guns that give people the belief that these things just happen and can’t be avoided. My effort here isn’t to tell someone that they aren’t seeing issues- it’s to get people to understand that they don’t have to have those issues. They can be fixed.

 

[Rowdy]

chamber

 

[brazz04]

Yes. So doing silly things with reloads, or silly chambers/throats causes silly problems?

I feel like someone has said that is what causes the issues, from the start.

So exactly how does rokslide jesus determine when to trim brass. My bad I trimmed 40 pieces of brass too short for this particular rifle.

Just another form thread of listen to me, “carbon rings don’t exist, but here are 5 ways to also make sure to avoid them”. Clown shoes dude.

 

[SwiftShot]

I grew up in a family of hunters and shooters, and I have been shooting for decades with various cartridges and have never experienced a Carbon Ring buildup in a chamber. Yet I see it mentioned fairly regularly. I do not clean my rifles (other than black powder ones), and I have not cleaned them for a long time, so, in my experience, it's not caused by lack of cleaning. I have no supporting evidence, but I believe most people actually clean their rifles because it's always been done that way. I watched a guy at the range recently clean his rifle after every 4 shots. When asked why, he said it was to reduce carbon buildup and improve accuracy. I said ok and went back to shooting my uncleaned 223 rifle.

Is this carbon buildup from a particular powder manufacturer, powder burn rate, powder volume used in a case, shooting too little, shooting too much, weather, using inappropriate cleaning products, aliens, or what? I have a hard time believing that I, or anyone else in my circle, have just been lucky and never experienced one.

Man I became a victim. My 6.5 PRC got bad. It became a hard chamber factory ammo and would actually extract a bullet from the case. Got a bore scope and dear Lord did it have a ring. Cleaned it up with some brushes and no more problems. I thought I was doing a good cleaning. Well a few hundred rounds , apparently I was not.

 

[2buffalo]

I can't definitively say that this barrel has a carbon ring but I don't know what else would cause the issues I started seeing with ~160 rds on the barrel. Difficultly closing the bolt, circular scuffs on chambered bullets, chambering also seated the bullets deeper, and moderate ejector marks with a load that had up until that point hadn't shown any signs of being significantly overpressure. However, going off velocity it was over 65K. Dropped down over a grain and was still getting ejector marks. The angled mirror tip on my borescope is too large for 22 cal so no worthwhile pictures. Scuffs are smaller after a round of CLR and scrubbing. If there is another cause and/or solution I'd love to get it figured out.

PBB 22 GT .169 FB, Alpha brass, American Reloading "N555", 88 gr ELDM & 90 gr SMK @ 2.500 COAL
LE Wilson full length sizing die w/ bushing and Frankford Arsenal universal seater.
70%/30% suppressed/unsuppressed, and only cleaned for the first 5 shots when new.
No changes in brass prep, loading equipment, or components. Dummy cartridge is still getting scuffs at 2.465.

View attachment 1021926View attachment 1021928

You are not seating them deep enough.

 

[wind gypsy]

I think a borescope in the hands of an inexperienced person might be one of the most harmful things known to man.

I’ve known people who sent barrels back to the manufacturer after looking at them with a borescope and without shooting them.

If a borescope clearly reveals a fault in the chamber machining, I see no reason why someone shouldn’t send that barrel back. I’m talking obvious/significant faults not a chamber that isn’t perfection.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

If a borescope clearly reveals a fault in the chamber machining, I see no reason why someone shouldn’t send that barrel back. I’m talking obvious/significant faults not a chamber that isn’t perfection.

No, I am talking about people who don’t understand what bores look like up close. “The cuts didn’t look sharp enough. No way this barrel will shoot well.”

The same sort of people who would try to sharpen a needle more after looking at its point under a microscope.

“The proof of the pudding is in the cake. The proof of the cake is in the eating.”

 

[wind gypsy]

So exactly how does rokslide jesus determine when to trim brass. My bad I trimmed 40 pieces of brass too short for this particular rifle.

Just another form thread of listen to me, “carbon rings don’t exist, but here are 5 ways to also make sure to avoid them”. Clown shoes dude.

He said in other threads he doesn’t trim. If brass gets too long he tosses it.

 

[brazz04]

No, I am talking about people who don’t understand what bores look like up close. “The cuts didn’t look sharp enough. No way this barrel will shoot well.”

The same sort of people who would try to sharpen a needle more after looking at its point under a microscope.

“The proof of the pudding is in the cake. The proof of the cake is in the eating.”

Agreed on the idea that you need to have an idea of what you are looking at, and as it pertains to this thread, a bore scope is a heck of a good tool to use.

 

[HighUintas]

Do you think normal shooting of bolt actions is burning off carbon?

I don't know and don't know how quickly you'd need to shoot to do that. Just a thought.

 

[Weldor]

I have no dog in the fight as I like to observe objectivity, but it is interesting that something that can be observed clearly with a bore scope causes such a huge amount of arguing and wiener measuring.

So many factors at play in carbon rings and if or when they ever cause an issue, that it seems like it would make sense to ignore them if they aren’t giving you problems, and address them if they do.

Right on.

 

[dreamingWest]

I can't definitively say that this barrel has a carbon ring but I don't know what else would cause the issues I started seeing with ~160 rds on the barrel. Difficultly closing the bolt, circular scuffs on chambered bullets, chambering also seated the bullets deeper, and moderate ejector marks with a load that had up until that point hadn't shown any signs of being significantly overpressure. However, going off velocity it was over 65K. Dropped down over a grain and was still getting ejector marks. The angled mirror tip on my borescope is too large for 22 cal so no worthwhile pictures. Scuffs are smaller after a round of CLR and scrubbing. If there is another cause and/or solution I'd love to get it figured out.

PBB 22 GT .169 FB, Alpha brass, American Reloading "N555", 88 gr ELDM & 90 gr SMK @ 2.500 COAL
LE Wilson full length sizing die w/ bushing and Frankford Arsenal universal seater.
70%/30% suppressed/unsuppressed, and only cleaned for the first 5 shots when new.
No changes in brass prep, loading equipment, or components. Dummy cartridge is still getting scuffs at 2.465.

View attachment 1021926View attachment 1021928

I just noticed the exact thing thing on a custom .260 Rem. I stopped cleaning it at about the same time I started shooting exclusively suppressed (2 years ago). This is a 140 A-max over 42.4 gr H4350, jumps .030". I don't shoot this gun much, but it continues to be deadly accurate.

I'll read through this thread, but maybe I should go back to cleaning this particular rifle.