Educate me on this infamous thing called a Carbon Ring.

[Pescetism]

I can't definitively say that this barrel has a carbon ring but I don't know what else would cause the issues I started seeing with ~160 rds on the barrel. Difficultly closing the bolt, circular scuffs on chambered bullets, chambering also seated the bullets deeper, and moderate ejector marks with a load that had up until that point hadn't shown any signs of being significantly overpressure. However, going off velocity it was over 65K. Dropped down over a grain and was still getting ejector marks. The angled mirror tip on my borescope is too large for 22 cal so no worthwhile pictures. Scuffs are smaller after a round of CLR and scrubbing. If there is another cause and/or solution I'd love to get it figured out.

PBB 22 GT .169 FB, Alpha brass, American Reloading "N555", 88 gr ELDM & 90 gr SMK @ 2.500 COAL
LE Wilson full length sizing die w/ bushing and Frankford Arsenal universal seater.
70%/30% suppressed/unsuppressed, and only cleaned for the first 5 shots when new.
No changes in brass prep, loading equipment, or components. Dummy cartridge is still getting scuffs at 2.465.

 

[brazz04]

I had no change in velocity, just started getting ejector swipes from the exact same load over time.

 

[BearGuy]

What combo will give me a carbon ring that will cause these problems? What cartridge?

I will have @longrangelead put one together then I will shoot it as is and see if I can get all these issues from carbon rings…. Because so far with hundreds of thousands of rounds from 223’s, 22CM, 243win, 6cm, 6XC, 6UM, 6.5cm, 260Rem, 6.5-284, 6.5PRC, 25/06, 270win, 270 Weatherby, 7-08, 7mm RM, 7PRC, 7mm STW, 7mm RUM, 28 Nosler, 308, 30/06, 300wm, 300 Weatherby, 30-378 Weatherby, 300 rum, 300 Rum improved, 338 rum, 338 Norma, 338 Lapua- and a whole bunch more… all these problems haven’t showed up.


I just can’t seem to find these issues. Shoot2Hunt has a dozen class rifles that a bunch of posters here have shot and shot next to for 1,200 rounds a week- never cleaned, always suppressed- yet somehow none have these issues. The 223 and 308 barrels have no real functional barrel life- 10,000-20,000 rounds. The 6cm’s last about 2,000 or a bit more. The 6.5cm’s last about 3,000 or a bit more. So on and so forth.


But tell me what the cartridge that will produce failure to chamber, blown primers, etc from carbon rings- I’ll get Mike to spin it up and have students shoot it in every S2H class with 12 witnesses. The last one I was absolutely guaranteed would give carbon rings and cause massive pressure issues quickly was 7PRC. That rifle went over 700 rounds without a single thing but bullets going down the bore, the last two 10x round groups it shot were the two best it ever shot, zero pressure issues, zero functional issues at all and I handed it back to Ryan because I was bored.

I definitely hear what you’re saying and tend to agree with you. With that being said, I’m having a hard time thinking what’s happening in my 6cm right now is something else. I would love to get your opinion on it while it is waiting on my smith to borescope and measure everything else.

Thread 'Barrel Problem'

Thursday at 9:08 PM

Need a little help here. I have a PBB barrel bought from LS Wild last year that might have a problem. Cartridge is 6 creed on a tikka action. When I first got the barrel I felt like the bolt was a little more difficult to close on some rounds then I thought it should be but it shot well and I didn’t really think much of it. I also don’t think I ever chambered a round that I didn’t fire as I was just practicing and getting as many rounds down the barrel as I could. Fast forward to the fall and after chambering a round that I didn’t fire, I noticed some “scratches” on the round. Kind of...

• BearGuy
• Replies: 23
• Forum: Firearms

The info is in this post but long story short I’m getting scratches on all of my bullets and getting ejector marks on my factory rounds and some high speeds with factory ammo and hand loads after ~400 rounds

 

[swavescatter]

I definitely hear what you’re saying and tend to agree with you. With that being said, I’m having a hard time thinking what’s happening in my 6cm right now is something else. I would love to get your opinion on it while it is waiting on my smith to borescope and measure everything else.

Thread 'Barrel Problem'

Thursday at 9:08 PM

Need a little help here. I have a PBB barrel bought from LS Wild last year that might have a problem. Cartridge is 6 creed on a tikka action. When I first got the barrel I felt like the bolt was a little more difficult to close on some rounds then I thought it should be but it shot well and I didn’t really think much of it. I also don’t think I ever chambered a round that I didn’t fire as I was just practicing and getting as many rounds down the barrel as I could. Fast forward to the fall and after chambering a round that I didn’t fire, I noticed some “scratches” on the round. Kind of...

• BearGuy
• Replies: 23
• Forum: Firearms

The info is in this post but long story short I’m getting scratches on all of my bullets and getting ejector marks on my factory rounds and some high speeds with factory ammo and hand loads after ~400 rounds

Easy experiment. Clean your bore very well with the Thorroclean system or C4 Boretech and oversized brass brusshes.

Did the problem go away? If yes, there was some form of carbon fouling that was causing issues (carbon ring). If not, then perhaps you have something else going on with your chamber/ammo.

Form loves to come into these threads and tell people they haven't measured, observed and rectified this "non-existent" issue. Sure, there may be approaches and combos that avoid it, but it's not a myth.

 

[BearGuy]

Easy experiment. Clean your bore very well with the Thorroclean system or C4 Boretech and oversized brass brusshes.

Did the problem go away? If yes, there was some form of carbon fouling that was causing issues (carbon ring). If not, then perhaps you have something else going on with your chamber/ammo.

Form loves to come into these threads and tell people they haven't measured, observed and rectified this "non-existent" issue. Sure, there may be approaches and combos that avoid it, but it's not a myth.

For a 6cm what size brass brush would you recommend?

 

[OXN939]

Clean your bore very well with the Thorroclean system or C4 Boretech and oversized brass brusshes.

To clarify- everyone here is talking about carbon rings thay form before the actual bore, correct? So if you have a .308 and run a .30 cal bore brush with solvent through it, you wouldn't be addressing the carbon ring, to my understanding.

 

[brazz04]

I have cleaned mine with a .264 brush in my 6.5 PRC with good results. Boretech C4 and a boretech nylon brush. I haven't had to use brass, though I'm probably catching it early.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form loves to come into these threads and tell people they haven't measured, observed and rectified this "non-existent" issue.

Tell me what combo causes it.

Sure, there may be approaches and combos that avoid it, but it's not a myth.

I have never rifles and loads don’t have problems. I have said it is easy to not have problems.

Load silly, have silly results.

 

[swavescatter]

For a 6cm what size brass brush would you recommend?

I would go 284 or 308 Iossa nylon brush for 6mm. At least 6.5mm or even 7mm with a bronze. I only bought one size up for my 7mm PRC in the nylon brushes and it wasn't enough for an expeditious scrub.

I also recommend a large chamber mop and brush (shotgun bronze set). The carbon ring is generally before the lands so in much larger diameter (think outside case neck).

 

[swavescatter]

Tell me what combo causes it.




I have never rifles and loads don’t have problems. I have said it is easy to not have problems.

Load silly, have silly results.

Despite your holier-than-thou stance on carbon rings, some people DO experience issues with them. Some even with factory ammo. Nobody in here is claiming to know the precise formula, only guessing at what could contribute. The point of these threads is to try to help guys deal with very real (and easily remedied) experiences they are having, not to tell them to just ignore it because it doesn't exist.

I was also thinking that *maybe* another contributing factor is that many of us don't "train" hard with our rifles and generally shoot slower shot strings, giving the barrels more time to cool. I would be interested in an experiment that looked at firing rate and carbon ring formation (or not).

 

[brazz04]

Tell me what combo causes it.




I have never rifles and loads don’t have problems. I have said it is easy to not have problems.

Load silly, have silly results.

I've told you down to the exact load that causes it.

 

[BearGuy]

Tell me what combo causes it.




I have never rifles and loads don’t have problems. I have said it is easy to not have problems.

Load silly, have silly results.

So I’ve never loaded “silly”. I’ve only ever shot factory outside of the few hand loads when I started noticing problems. And on top of that, I was loading 2 grains under max in most cases and still having pressure signs and bullets scraping. I would truly love your input on what you think is happening for me to get the problems I’m having because clearly something isn’t right.

 

[North of 60]

Serious question...do we know if it is more prone to happen in certain brands of rifles vs others?

 

[SouthPaw]

I can't definitively say that this barrel has a carbon ring but I don't know what else would cause the issues I started seeing with ~160 rds on the barrel. Difficultly closing the bolt, circular scuffs on chambered bullets, chambering also seated the bullets deeper, and moderate ejector marks with a load that had up until that point hadn't shown any signs of being significantly overpressure. However, going off velocity it was over 65K. Dropped down over a grain and was still getting ejector marks. The angled mirror tip on my borescope is too large for 22 cal so no worthwhile pictures. Scuffs are smaller after a round of CLR and scrubbing. If there is another cause and/or solution I'd love to get it figured out.

PBB 22 GT .169 FB, Alpha brass, American Reloading "N555", 88 gr ELDM & 90 gr SMK @ 2.500 COAL
LE Wilson full length sizing die w/ bushing and Frankford Arsenal universal seater.
70%/30% suppressed/unsuppressed, and only cleaned for the first 5 shots when new.
No changes in brass prep, loading equipment, or components. Dummy cartridge is still getting scuffs at 2.465.

View attachment 1021926View attachment 1021928

It's likely that your freebore is cut too tight. You likely have a prefit barrel that was cut with a worn reamer. Open up the freebore diameter and this issue goes away.

 

[Formidilosus]

Despite your holier-than-thou stance on carbon rings, some people DO experience issues with them. Some even with factory ammo. Nobody in here is claiming to know the precise formula, only guessing at what could contribute. The point of these threads is to try to help guys deal with very real (and easily remedied) experiences they are having, not to tell them to just ignore it because it doesn't exist.

I was also thinking that *maybe* another contributing factor is that many of us don't "train" hard with our rifles and generally shoot slower shot strings, giving the barrels more time to cool. I would be interested in an experiment that looked at firing rate and carbon ring formation (or not).

Holier than though? Or simply every single time someone has this issue, it was able to be found that their chamber or ammo was the issue. 80,000 to 100,000 plus rounds a year with no guns having problems. That ain’t magic- that is knowing how bot screw a rifle up.
That the point is- instead of “oh it just happens, I guess I’ll clean every 7 rounds”; how about find out what is causing it and fix it so you don’t have to deal with the BS.

Also, notice that you can’t tell me what cartridge causes it. How many people have been open enough to be wrong, that they will get a rifle built to see it for themselves?

 

[Formidilosus]

I've told you down to the exact load that causes it.

Yes. So doing silly things with reloads, or silly chambers/throats causes silly problems?

I feel like someone has said that is what causes the issues, from the start.

 

[Shortschaf]

Yes. So doing silly things with reloads, or silly chambers/throats causes silly problems?

I feel like someone has said that is what causes the issues, from the start.

For us reading along can you share what you consider "silly"?

 

[Pescetism]

It's likely that your freebore is cut too tight. You likely have a prefit barrel that was cut with a worn reamer. Open up the freebore diameter and this issue goes away.

Absolutely possible, but unless I'm misunderstanding something, that wouldn't explain the sudden pressure signs and bullet scoring.

 

[swavescatter]

Holier than though? Or simply every single time someone has this issue, it was able to be found that their chamber or ammo was the issue. 80,000 to 100,000 plus rounds a year with no guns having problems. That ain’t magic- that is knowing how bot screw a rifle up.
That the point is- instead of “oh it just happens, I guess I’ll clean every 7 rounds”; how about find out what is causing it and fix it so you don’t have to deal with the BS.

Also, notice that you can’t tell me what cartridge causes it. How many people have been open enough to be wrong, that they will get a rifle built to see it for themselves?

An actual HELPFUL response would be to outline your theories on what can cause it (or not, can’t tell if you even think it’s real). Instead you just brag about rounds down range and problems you don’t have.

COOL COOL COOL

 

[BearGuy]

Holier than though? Or simply every single time someone has this issue, it was able to be found that their chamber or ammo was the issue. 80,000 to 100,000 plus rounds a year with no guns having problems. That ain’t magic- that is knowing how bot screw a rifle up.
That the point is- instead of “oh it just happens, I guess I’ll clean every 7 rounds”; how about find out what is causing it and fix it so you don’t have to deal with the BS.

Also, notice that you can’t tell me what cartridge causes it. How many people have been open enough to be wrong, that they will get a rifle built to see it for themselves?

What specifically about a chamber after ~400 rounds would be the problem? I think there is multiple people right now that would like a little more clarity, including myself, on more specific problems that are arising that you see. I acknowledge that your experience goes far beyond my own and that you can impart much more wisdom than I can but it’s frustrating that you’re wanting to argue with one person who is disagreeing with you rather than trying to offer other avenues and solutions to multiple people asking for your experience. I genuinely want to learn and grow my knowledge base so that I can help myself more in the future.