Eastern MT??? Thoughts?

[Marshfly]

It really is wild that one tag lets you hunt ALL of this land with a rifle for 6 weeks. I am sure that made sense at one point, but it is a head scratcher nowadays.

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Why is it wild? There are tons of those districts that have specific restrictions on a particular species and sex due to various factors. There is a lot of opportunity with a general tag but there are also a lot of places that you simply can't reasonably hunt anything but a whitetail also.

 

[j_volt]

Why is it wild? There are tons of those districts that have specific restrictions on a particular species and sex due to various factors. There is a lot of opportunity with a general tag but there are also a lot of places that you simply can't reasonably hunt anything but a whitetail also.

Where else in the west can you hunt mule deer in that many places with 1 tag? Or that long with one tag?

We always say hunting is used as a tool for conservation. Every other state has decided that tool known as hunting is most effective when managed on a smaller scale per tag. A smaller scale allows for adjustments in tag numbers, season dates, and other criteria to adjust to localized problems/successes, instead of a land mass bigger than most countries.

 

[Marshfly]

Where else in the west can you hunt mule deer in that many places with 1 tag? Or that long with one tag?

We always say hunting is used as a tool for conservation. Every other state has decided that tool known as hunting is most effective when managed on a smaller scale per tag. A smaller scale allows for adjustments in tag numbers, season dates, and other criteria to adjust to localized problems/successes, instead of a land mass bigger than most countries.

Montana does that. I have the book on my desk. Plenty of the units in that image have mule deer restrictions. Is it enough? I'm not a biologist. I'm guessing most in this thread aren't either. So none of us know for sure.
Would I like there to be more deer in the state that I live? Sure. But mule deer populations across the entire west are down. Drought, winter kill, etc play a huge part in that. How much is due to mismanagement is simply a guess with the data we have available that is mostly anecdotal.

 

[j_volt]

Montana does that. I have the book on my desk. Plenty of the units in that image have mule deer restrictions. Is it enough? I'm not a biologist. I'm guessing most in this thread aren't either. So none of us know for sure.
Would I like there to be more deer in the state that I live? Sure. But mule deer populations across the entire west are down. Drought, winter kill, etc play a huge part in that. How much is due to mismanagement is simply a guess with the data we have available that is mostly anecdotal.

It is not debatable that a general deer tag in Montana allows you hunt more area and for more days than any other western state. It’s not even close. You don’t have to be a scientist to conclude that it is a strange strategy.

 

[Marshfly]

It is not debatable that a general deer tag in Montana allows you hunt more area and for more days than any other western state. It’s not even close. You don’t have to be a scientist to conclude that it is a strange strategy.

I think it's honestly just a vestige of times when less people were hunting the state. I think it also has a lot to do with the fact that historically and still today Montana is very much a state full of "leave me alone to do as I wish" residents.

Wishing Montana to become Colorado is not what Montanans want. Not remotely. It's also why I moved here and not to Colorado.

 

[Balderdash]

The weather is not the issue. MT has had periodic droughts and bad winters forever.

The issue is too many tags, population growth, pounding does and basically unlimited rut hunting. It's a lot easier to be successful with a new PRC with a fancy scope and a dial for people to lob shots at 1,000 yards. Maybe it's time to go back to old iron sights instead of scopes?

FWP is about the $
Their management is a joke, data is unreliable at best, and the lip service they give the public is hot trash.
Quit killing does, limit the tags and shorten the seasons. The deer will come back. Unfortunately FWP is a politically managed crack addict addicted to the NR money that pours in to fund their operation so none of that will happen.

During a hunt this year, my brother and I were discussing the phenomenon of equipment getting better resulting in more game being taken.

Through the course of our hunt we talked to several hunters who took very large bulls and bucks at distances of 5-700 yd; we also fit into this stat as we took an elk at 600 and a deer at 475. I've been western big game hunting for 25 years, and maybe it's just me, but up until about 8-10 years ago, it was pretty rare to hear of people downing game beyond 500 yd. Even 500 was too long of a poke for many, if not most, and many stories circulated camps and conversations about the big one that got away due to it being just out of range. Due to LRF and better shooting equipment, a certain number of those animals that used to be out of range are now getting killed.

I watched the same thing happen with archery going from rudimentary compounds to 300 fps+ to now crossbows in many jurisdictions. I'm not going to comment much on the proliferation of increased effective range, other than to say that I hope tag allotments take increased killing efficacy into account.

I, too, wonder how they can establish how much game has been harvested with the survey techniques many departments use. IIRC, I've been called 1 time and received a survey postcard a time or two after buying upwards of 30-40 tags over the past 25 years. I get that harvest quota is established by how much game inhabits a certain region, not on how much was taken, but how can they accurately decide how many tags to give if they don't have accurate hunter success ratios?

 

[mtwarden]

Region 7 always prided itself in having folks be able to hunt the entire region; this was true for both antelope and deer. They figured if numbers were low in Ekalaka, people would shift to Forsyth, etc. It was nice for hunters (and game wardens!) to have simplified regulations and more opportunity.

Perhaps those days should end (already has for antelope)?????

As far as tracking populations, the R7 biologists use “trend areas” to do their estimations. Each biologist has several trend areas (representative of their districts) that they fly. They’ve been using the same trend areas for decades, so should have a decent handle on populations.

 

[FYG]

I think it's honestly just a vestige of times when less people were hunting the state. I think it also has a lot to do with the fact that historically and still today Montana is very much a state full of "leave me alone to do as I wish" residents.

Wishing Montana to become Colorado is not what Montanans want. Not remotely. It's also why I moved here and not to Colorado.

Not many want it to be Colorado, but everyone does want to see better quality, better ratios, and better overall numbers. They may not all want what it takes to get there, but good luck finding anyone that strongly opposes any one of those things. Unfortunately, that will never happen while there is an 11 week general season that runs through the rut, and then is followed up by a muzzy hunt shortly after to give the few survivors the coup de grace.

The strategy of opportunity for all worked through the 90's. It doesn't work anymore, for a multitude of reasons, hunting pressure and elevated success rates being a major player.

 

[GoBig]

NR here, what about issuing tags by zone? not giving everyone (NR) run of the state. I can emphasize with the residents, mostly what I see in the area I have been going to are NR, very few residents, I am sure you guys are frustrated and traditional spots have been overrun.

I also agree that Fish and Wildlife agencies across the West have not gotten ahead of technology, optics, rangefinders, and firearms and archery. I do really enjoy being in Montana in November during the rut, it is a magical time where at any time you might find something amazing, but those bucks are getting few and far between with everyone shooting small and mediocre bucks and lots of does.

 

[wind gypsy]

That's not human greed. That's pi$$ poor game management done by "experts" we pay and trust to ensure the health of the resource and hunting opportunities for all of us and future generations.

It's both. Montana hunters tend to demand opportunity first and that's what they've gotten. The same hunters elect politicians that prevent the FWP from effectively managing the wildlife.

 

[Lawnboi]

It’s apparent that doe tags need to be eliminated for a while there. Like gone.

They can keep everything else the same imo. You can have the best hunting and guys will still piss and moan that they can’t kill a wall hanger within a few hundred yards of the truck. And when that happens you see what’s happening here. Blame the NR, blame the bow/gun hunters, blame technology. Locals complain about guys coming from across the state. This isn’t just Montana, it every single state that has decent hunting. Everyone wants their piece of the pie including the government and nobody wants to do what will actually help, or in some cases just don’t know how to.

It was sad to see it as bad as it was this year out there.

When this much money gets involved with it, as it has, I don’t see anything happening fast enough unfortunately. Treated as a cash crop now and not as a resource.

 

[Marshfly]

When this much money gets involved with it, as it has, I don’t see anything happening fast enough unfortunately. Treated as a cash crop now and not as a resource.

I was thinking about this earlier and I think this is a real issue. I have zero against non-resident tags. I have bought my share over the years. But when that money becomes a huge part of the FWP operating budget each year there is an enormous conflict between good management and self-preservation of funds.

I don't know how you fix that though. On one hand I don't want tag and license money going to anything but wildlife management/enforcement. On the other hand when that money is the vast majority of the budget of the agency they have a real interest in collecting as much as possible.

 

[brockel]

Would I like there to be more deer in the state that I live? Sure. But mule deer populations across the entire west are down. Drought, winter kill, etc play a huge part in that. How much is due to mismanagement is simply a guess with the data we have available that is mostly anecdotal.

Do most other states still dish out thousands of mule deer doe tags when their spring counts show numbers down 58% from the 10 year average for the region?

 

[wind gypsy]

I was thinking about this earlier and I think this is a real issue. I have zero against non-resident tags. I have bought my share over the years. But when that money becomes a huge part of the FWP operating budget each year there is an enormous conflict between good management and self-preservation of funds.

I don't know how you fix that though. On one hand I don't want tag and license money going to anything but wildlife management/enforcement. On the other hand when that money is the vast majority of the budget of the agency they have a real interest in collecting as much as possible.

If the concern is being addicted to NR $, maybe the residents who can’t stand to give up a shred of opportunity for the greater good could start ponying up more than the cost of a chipotle burrito for a tag to reduce that dependence.

 

[Marshfly]

If the concern is being addicted to NR $, maybe the residents who can’t stand to give up a shred of opportunity for the greater good could start ponying up more than the cost of a chipotle burrito for a tag to reduce that dependence.

Agreed. I would totally pay double. And I have three in my family currently hunting with another not far behind.

The public opportunities here are amazing even at the current levels.

 

[Lawnboi]

I was thinking about this earlier and I think this is a real issue. I have zero against non-resident tags. I have bought my share over the years. But when that money becomes a huge part of the FWP operating budget each year there is an enormous conflict between good management and self-preservation of funds.

I don't know how you fix that though. On one hand I don't want tag and license money going to anything but wildlife management/enforcement. On the other hand when that money is the vast majority of the budget of the agency they have a real interest in collecting as much as possible.

Most of the bickering we see on forums I can relate to, but we did this to ourselves. They made a past time a sport and a resource a cash crop. I don’t hate non residents in my state either, I also don’t think we should price the working man out of hunting in my home state. But people will beat that drum all day long.

Working for government, I can tell you there is more bullshit in government than most realize. Poor management and paper pushers are pushing away employees who actually want to make a difference.

It’s a much bigger problem than we see on the surface. And we let it get that way.

Sad place to be in, so much information, so easy to obtain. People willing to sacrifice to make it better and it’s bogged down by bullshit. I can relate it personally to my job. We know what needs to be done to fix it but it seems unobtainable because of bureaucracy.

 

[S.Clancy]

During a hunt this year, my brother and I were discussing the phenomenon of equipment getting better resulting in more game being taken.

Through the course of our hunt we talked to several hunters who took very large bulls and bucks at distances of 5-700 yd; we also fit into this stat as we took an elk at 600 and a deer at 475. I've been western big game hunting for 25 years, and maybe it's just me, but up until about 8-10 years ago, it was pretty rare to hear of people downing game beyond 500 yd. Even 500 was too long of a poke for many, if not most, and many stories circulated camps and conversations about the big one that got away due to it being just out of range. Due to LRF and better shooting equipment, a certain number of those animals that used to be out of range are now getting killed.

I watched the same thing happen with archery going from rudimentary compounds to 300 fps+ to now crossbows in many jurisdictions. I'm not going to comment much on the proliferation of increased effective range, other than to say that I hope tag allotments take increased killing efficacy into account.

I, too, wonder how they can establish how much game has been harvested with the survey techniques many departments use. IIRC, I've been called 1 time and received a survey postcard a time or two after buying upwards of 30-40 tags over the past 25 years. I get that harvest quota is established by how much game inhabits a certain region, not on how much was taken, but how can they accurately decide how many tags to give if they don't have accurate hunter success ratios?

Nobody wants to talk about this either. We could actually make it hunting again by forcing equipment to be more primitive, sort of like what Utah is doing. Stick bows, open sighted rifles.

 

[j_volt]

Nobody wants to talk about this either. We could actually make it hunting again by forcing equipment to be more primitive, sort of like what Utah is doing. Stick bows, open sighted rifles.

I sat in a hunter ed class in 2004, and I vividly remember an instructor saying if someone tells you that they shot a deer at 450 yards, they are either lying or they got extremely lucky.

That’s a chip shot nowadays.

 

[Balderdash]

Most of the bickering we see on forums I can relate to, but we did this to ourselves. They made a past time a sport and a resource a cash crop. I don’t hate non residents in my state either, I also don’t think we should price the working man out of hunting in my home state. But people will beat that drum all day long.

Working for government, I can tell you there is more bullshit in government than most realize. Poor management and paper pushers are pushing away employees who actually want to make a difference.

It’s a much bigger problem than we see on the surface. And we let it get that way.

Sad place to be in, so much information, so easy to obtain. People willing to sacrifice to make it better and it’s bogged down by bullshit. I can relate it personally to my job. We know what needs to be done to fix it but it seems unobtainable because of bureaucracy.

Lawnboi:

We must work for the same organization.

I've watched a lot of really good, hard working people get unnecessarily disenfranchised by the exact mechanisms that you describe.

As they say in dog Latin: Illegitimi non carborundum

 

[mt terry d]

It could be the biologists know what's going on, but lack the tools to restrict harvest in certain areas with the way the general tag is structured.

Legitimate question but I think not.

If I recall correctly, one year MT shut down the sheep hunt ( or was it general rifle season? Maybe someone here will clarify) in the Gallatin the day before the season opened. 24 hours or less notice.

From what I've heard from people "inside", biologists are a big part of the problem.