Down Vs. Synthetic for Backpack Hunting

[Formidilosus]

All great points. That SG jacket sounds pretty awesome. Im surprised you almost went hypothermic in the Uncompahgre. That definitly hasnt been my experience but I wouldnt call it a furnace either. All of this is pretty subjective to the users body type, metabolism, etc. I think.

The SG jacket is a good jacket. However I’m not saying it’s THE jacket. It’s just the one that has proven to work so far. The Uncompahgre was a combination of things- being wet from sweat, wool base layer, high humidity, and just a tick of wind. However, it has less insulation amount than most summer weight sleeping bags. It therefore can not be as warm as one.... if you are stationary. When used by quite a few people as I described (thin base layer, R1 fleece, no wind, out of the sun), internal temp of the jacket goes below 66-70 degrees somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees for most wearers. That 68* middle ground has shown to be where most are truly comfortable.

The subjectivity is much less about the actual warmth, and way more about dudes trying to be tough and claiming they’re not chilly. Guys have sternly stated they were totally comfortable even though the were lightly rubbing their hands, and had chill bumps when you pulled their sleeve up. When people get chilled in the slightest, that is when they start diverting attention away from the task, and some part of them start thinking about warmth.

Respectfully disagree. I’ll let the OP determine if their rankings and description is helpful. They are intense climbers and mountaineers.

I’m aware of who they are, have experience with using them and their basis for clothing. Have found good things, and have been miserable doing so as well. Nothing they write answers the question above. If it does, and I’ve overlooked it, can you please point it out?



Just like a sleeping bag, I need to know what temp ranges it works in. Active use doesn’t work for relaying information because people have a huge variation in heat production while in motion. They have a lot less variation stationary. So once someone learns what temp rating they need for a certain activity, then they can make informed decisions. In a multi year effort the only way that has shown for this to work is to treat and evaluate clothing like it’s a sleeping bag. Otherwise, the information is like in the thread about “puffys that are actually warm”- all over the map with no real value.


It’s certainly better than the vast majority of individual comments, but the use of general mountaineering, climbing, biking, coffee drinking, skiing, etc does not translate to cold weather stationary activities. True expedition use can, but it still isn’t a direct informant of cold weather, late season glassing.

 

[Fins_N_Tines]

Some really good information and point of views. I know I still have a Northface Blue Kazoo 20 degree down sleeping bag from 1998 that I always stored correctly and I still use that bag and it still has its loft. Just a testament to the longevity of down.

 

[Rommy]

I prefer down. It’s warmer and lighter. Synthetic is safer but if you take care of your gear down is the best


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[egarviz]

Depends what you value more. Say you have one down and one synthetic bag both rated for the same temperature, the down will always be lighter and more packable but synthetic will retain its warming capabilities in wet weather. This is more dependent on the quality of the materials but down typically tends to last longer and keep its warmth rating over many years.

 

[Hagas4all]

You need to separate down by brand. Treated down is not the same from make to make, just like rain gear is not the same from make to make.

Right now the only thing that has been demonstrated is that SG’s treated down products work even when wet. Repeatedly. That’s it. No one is saying that another companies treated down will work... Or at least I haven’t seen anyone state that.



1). SG treated down longevity: At least 10 washes personally, though most without detergent. I started using a brand new SG Grumman in October of 2019. In 6months (180 days +/-) it has approx. 120-130 days of wear. Almost of that wear has been field use- dirt, sweat, blood, mud, water. It still lofts identically as the brand new one, and I still use to cook my base layers dry from sweat. It can be used to cook clothing dry becoming noticeably wet, then stowed wet, and when pulled out later in less than 5 minutes it has lofted back up.

2). Synthetic longevity. In comparison one of the best synthetic jackets- Kifaru LPP lost about half of it’s loft in the first 90 days of wear. In February of this year, another one had visibly less loft than a brand new one. That’s less than 30 days of field use and it is already degraded. The ECWS/PCU system that is often brought up, is to us- a one season use item. It will be noticeably degraded with 60 days of use in and out of packs. If actually used, synthetics have a very short lifespan. Most people never notice because most don’t put their equipment to the limit, and most never compare it when they do, side by side with a brand new unused item.


Part of this problem is the information that is presented. I’ve wrote about this multiple times. People talk warmth, yet have no consistent basis for their beliefs or experiences. For instance, after nearly going hypothermic in a FL Uncompagre in 40-45 degree weather after being assured it was “an oven”, I started to try and figure out a way to cut through the BS. No one excepts a sleeping bag that is rated to 15 degrees, if they have to rub their arms, flex their feet, throw more clothes inside the bag, throw another bag over top, etc. A 15 degree bag should be comfortable at 15 degrees (yes I understand temp ratings, fuel, etc). Point being if you move at all, which nearly everyone does even when they claim “stationary”, all useful information is lost.

Long story short, in true stationary conditions when the temperature goes below 68’ish degrees between the mid layer and the puff jacket is when most adult males with relatively low body fat, will start doing extra things to warm up. Turns out if compared to a sleeping bag, that FL Uncompagre is really a 50+ degree bag. No, it’s not an “oven”.

In the past synthetic were the general use, mainstay cold weather insulator for me. Down was specialized use only. Funny thing is my first good down jacket (MH) is still solid after 14’ish years, but I have to replace synthetics after one hunting season, max two. Now, down products are the general use, and synthetics are for specific use only.


I’m not sure why people are so reluctant to actually use their equipment. If you want to know what it does, try it. Within two days of receiving the first Grumman I was on a ridge in sub twenty degrees, soaked completely to the point that you could squeeze water out of the Sitka Kelvin Active I used as a mid layer, and using the Grumman to dry out. I had a synthetic and another down jacket because odds were it would fail. But it worked very well. Like scopes/rifles/packs/trucks/etc. just use it. I can’t really see the point of buying a $300 jacket and then being reluctant to see what it can do.

@Formidilosus can you recommend any down/synthetic jackets that are good for static 30-40f and don’t break the bank? I only get about 20-30 hunting days a year but I seem to tear up jackets through normal use. Would like a SG gruman but I can’t justify it for how often I am replacing.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus can you recommend any down/synthetic jackets that are good for static 30-40f and don’t break the bank? I only get about 20-30 hunting days a year but I seem to tear up jackets through normal use. Would like a SG gruman but I can’t justify it for how often I am replacing.

You can find Rab down jackets on sale often enough. Look for versions with 5+ ounces of down.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Is the Grumman still the top pick? I've been wondering why I felt cold so often in my other puffy - it's starting to make sense now.

 

[Hagas4all]

You can find Rab down jackets on sale often enough. Look for versions with 5+ ounces of down.

Thank you sir.

 

[P Carter]

Thank you sir.

https://www.backcountry.com/b/rab-electron-pro-jacket-mens?CMP_SKU=RABZ06M&MER=0406&skid=RABZ06M-DEEINK-L&mr:trackingCode=C6090880-3E46-ED11-8125-005056944E17&mr:referralID=NA&mr:device=m&mr:adType=plaonline&CMP_ID=PLA_GMm001&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PLA&k_clickid=_k_EAIaIQobChMI3fDq6fKW_wIVky7UAR13Hw1mEAQYASABEgIv4PD_BwE_k_&utm_id=go_cmp-213412597_adg-143952312610_ad-657210057774_pla-2014817728545_dev-m_ext-_prd-RABZ06M-DEEINK-L_mca-7811_sig-EAIaIQobChMI3fDq6fKW_wIVky7UAR13Hw1mEAQYASABEgIv4PD_BwE&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3fDq6fKW_wIVky7UAR13Hw1mEAQYASABEgIv4PD_BwE

 

[Formidilosus]

Is the Grumman still the top pick? I've been wondering why I felt cold so often in my other puffy - it's starting to make sense now.

For wet weather down- yes. If wetting out isn’t a concern, there are warmer jackets at the same weight, or less expensive at the same warmth.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Thanks

 

[K_pem]

I honestly feel like moisture management and garment application is more of the variable debacle than the actual warmth performance of down vs synthetic.

I carry my SG Grumman pretty much year-round and I'm confident that it will save my ass in a bad situation. But I also take care to keep it protected and dry as well as have other layers than will perform well wet when needed.

As far as the SG only being comfortably warm to 30 degrees, I would be interested to see how people's calorie intake and hydration is and if they're actually, in fact, keeping their head/hands/feet warm.

This last winter I was out wolf hunting from a quad, it was 0 degrees on my truck when I left, and my weather app was pretty much the same for my location. With the wind chill both weather and from riding the quad, I would guess it was easily -5 to -10 degrees. I was wearing the following and I was SWEATING BULLETS just stationary riding looking for tracks.

Bottom = FL Wick boxers--SG Helio base--FL Corrugate guides--Sitka Blizzard bibs
Top = FL Wick LS--Sitka Ambient hoody--Sitka Jetstream vest--Grumman jacket--Sitka Coldfront
Feet = Merino thin liner socks--Darn tough mid weight socks over those--Lacrosse alpha burly pro
Hands = Sitka Gunner--KUIU SD Mitts (old model)
Head/neck = FL Kiln neck gaiter--Sitka Coldfront beanie

As soon as I took off the Grumman, I was comfortable again. I've glassed many mornings in just a base layer and Peloton 97 with the Grumman over it sub 30 degrees and was comfy. I think the big thing is warm coffee and calories in.

 

[Fun Guy]

Is the Grumman still the top pick? I've been wondering why I felt cold so often in my other puffy - it's starting to make sense now.

I live in Bozeman and have worn a lot of different puffies. Absolutely nothing compares to the Grumman, it's super comfy and warm as hell. It's actually too warm for me a lot of the time so it only comes out for really frosty conditions. I bought it after using their zero bag and almost baking to death!

I run a lot of Kuiu but SG owns the insulation world IMO.

 

[ccarter]

Interesting thread to read up on and see people's experiences/opinions on this. Interesting to see how many people are discussing wetting out from sweat in their down. Personally, I don't hike in a puffy of any kind unless it's a very gradual or short hike. I only put it on while stationary. If I'm sweating really hard when I get to a stopping point, I wait to cool down a little before putting a down jacket on.

That said, I got the King's XKG down jacket last year- it's light and lofty- treated 800 down. Seems comfortable whether it's 20 or 40, but doesn't really feel super toasty. Interested to see how it does this year. I'll share my thoughts later in the season.

 

[Fins_N_Tines]

Interesting thread to read up on and see people's experiences/opinions on this. Interesting to see how many people are discussing wetting out from sweat in their down. Personally, I don't hike in a puffy of any kind unless it's a very gradual or short hike. I only put it on while stationary. If I'm sweating really hard when I get to a stopping point, I wait to cool down a little before putting a down jacket on.

That said, I got the King's XKG down jacket last year- it's light and lofty- treated 800 down. Seems comfortable whether it's 20 or 40, but doesn't really feel super toasty. Interested to see how it does this year. I'll share my thoughts later in the season.

To the wetting out from sweat point, a lot of people like to through on a puffy layer when they get to their spot or late night hike back to tent while they are still warm to not lose the heat. Again, not saying you are doing it wrong, but if you wait to cool down you lose a lot of heat that could be trapped.

 

[ccarter]

To the wetting out from sweat point, a lot of people like to through on a puffy layer when they get to their spot or late night hike back to tent while they are still warm to not lose the heat. Again, not saying you are doing it wrong, but if you wait to cool down you lose a lot of heat that could be trapped.

Makes sense. I do feel like sometimes I'm wasting time stripping and adding layers- I just really try to avoid getting too hot while I'm exerting energy. Curious if anyone has had their treated down soaked from the outside and had it lose it's loft- how soaked did it have to get?

 

[Mykolaivka887]

Synthetic only. I'm not a down-filled anything type of guy.

 

[BoilerBowHunter]

This thread was really interesting to me and one of the reasons I enjoy Rokslide.

I had never read up on the limited life of synthetic insulation until this thread. I have listened to Barklow quite a bit and kind of take his word on many things as gospel. Due to that, the Sitka Aerolite seemed like a great piece to me. I assumed the only penalties for synthetic over down were 1) weight and 2) compressibility. I didn't realize it may not last as long.

Has anyone seen where Sitka or other companies have ever spoken to this? Or is it a "dirty little secret"? Would be hard to sell a $300+ jacket if the public thought it would only last 1-2 years. Is it possible that Sitka has injected some technology to avoid this issue?