down losing warmth

[tipsntails7]

ok so i will premise this with i have zero experiance with down bags besides a very old (10+years) handmedown bag that i use in the summer. im currently looking to upgrade my general purpose bag which is an old kelty syn. my question is do down bags lose warmth over time because of being overcompressed or because they loose insulation over time? or is neither a problem with the new technology in bags today?

 

[Matt Cashell]

I have a Kelty 0 degree bag that I have had for over ten years and it is still as warm as it ever was. I have only heard of them losing warmth through losing down. Some companies like Feathered Friends will refill them too.

 

[orionsbrother]

To tag onto the OP, does treated down lose insulative quality over time, shortening the usable lifespan? Where traditional down may last longer, but not be as tolerant of moist conditions? Is that the trade-off or are reported problems with the jackets something else?

 

[Backpack Hunter]

Standard down I have never had problems with it losing it's insulative abilities.
In my mind the jury is still out on hydrophobic down. With a couple of reports coming out it has done nothing to ease my initial concerns with the product.

 

[Justin Crossley]

My Marmot helium is about ten years old now and still works perfect.

 

[colonel00]

As some have mentioned, I have read posts where people claim that down or treated down has "lost warmth". Now, I can concede that improper storage could cause down to lose loft and thus lose insulation capabilities. However, most of the comments I have seen seem to be quite subjective. I'm not trying to call anyone out or even say that it isn't happening. I would just like to see some actual testing and true measurements, not just "feels colder than before" type comments. There are numerous variables that could contribute to feeling colder.

 

[JGO]

Relating to traditional down, my personal experience is that when properly cared for, it will always outlast synthetic. Synthetic is easier to care for, insulates when wet but it is heavier and doesn't last like down. Down is lighter, lasts longer but doesn't insulate when wet and requires better care when washing and storing. Like the previous posts, I too have down sleeping bags and jackets which are seven to ten years old and work as well today as when new. I am disappointed to learn of negative reports on treated down. Looking forward to more intel on that issue.

 

[Tim in Wa.]

I have a Western Mountaineering bag that is a bit over 30 years old,it still works as well as ever
Tim

 

[todd kelly]

For the last couple of months I have done a ton of research on the subject on treated down.

From talking to guy at Patagonia, treating down with a DWR treatment increases the downs fill power rating. They start with 800 fill power down and after treatment the fill power rating is increased to 1000FP. If this DWR treatment wears off, the down you are left with is the original 800 fill power down, and the down will not be as warm as when it was new and treated. This is why they recommend that treated down only be washed using liquid carbon dioxide. A service they offer.

More info...
http://www.patagonia.com/pdf/en_US/Encapsil_cleaning.pdf

"We
recommend infrequent cleaning of any down product (and certainly not more than twice a year)
to ensure that your garment has a long, effective life. We advise sending us your Encapsil Belay
Parka for cleaning.
Extensive research shows that the traditional approaches to cleaning down products are not ideal
for cleaning any water-repellent down. Soaps and detergents mask some of the key benefits
of our Encapsil down, and they are extremely difficult to remove from the complex structure of
down feathers and clusters. "


I also had a similar response when talking to sierra designs, but they said under normal use and minimal washing their DWR treatment should last the same lifespan if not longer than normal down.....

 

[Aron Snyder]

For the last couple of months I have done a ton of research on the subject on treated down.

From talking to guy at Patagonia, treating down with a DWR treatment increases the downs fill power rating. They start with 800 fill power down and after treatment the fill power rating is increased to 1000FP. If this DWR treatment wears off, the down you are left with is the original 800 fill power down, and the down will not be as warm as when it was new and treated. This is why they recommend that treated down only be washed using liquid carbon dioxide. A service they offer.

More info...
http://www.patagonia.com/pdf/en_US/Encapsil_cleaning.pdf

"We
recommend infrequent cleaning of any down product (and certainly not more than twice a year)
to ensure that your garment has a long, effective life. We advise sending us your Encapsil Belay
Parka for cleaning.
Extensive research shows that the traditional approaches to cleaning down products are not ideal
for cleaning any water-repellent down. Soaps and detergents mask some of the key benefits
of our Encapsil down, and they are extremely difficult to remove from the complex structure of
down feathers and clusters. "


I also had a similar response when talking to sierra designs, but they said under normal use and minimal washing their DWR treatment should last the same lifespan if not longer than normal down.....

I posted that exact info on another forum and got told I was biased against treated down.

Did you ask them how quick it comes off?

 

[AK Troutbum]

For the last couple of months I have done a ton of research on the subject on treated down.

From talking to guy at Patagonia, treating down with a DWR treatment increases the downs fill power rating. They start with 800 fill power down and after treatment the fill power rating is increased to 1000FP. If this DWR treatment wears off, the down you are left with is the original 800 fill power down, and the down will not be as warm as when it was new and treated. This is why they recommend that treated down only be washed using liquid carbon dioxide. A service they offer.

More info...
http://www.patagonia.com/pdf/en_US/Encapsil_cleaning.pdf

"We
recommend infrequent cleaning of any down product (and certainly not more than twice a year)
to ensure that your garment has a long, effective life. We advise sending us your Encapsil Belay
Parka for cleaning.
Extensive research shows that the traditional approaches to cleaning down products are not ideal
for cleaning any water-repellent down. Soaps and detergents mask some of the key benefits
of our Encapsil down, and they are extremely difficult to remove from the complex structure of
down feathers and clusters. "


I also had a similar response when talking to sierra designs, but they said under normal use and minimal washing their DWR treatment should last the same lifespan if not longer than normal down.....

Interesting. Thanks for posting Todd. I wonder if there are any cleaners that provide this service? I'm sure Patagonia wouldn't accept a KUIU product if you sent it to them to be cleaned.

 

[todd kelly]

I was told by Patagonia that there is a lot of variables, but from their testing, treated down washed in a normal fashion with soaps and or detergents would start to loose its DWR effectiveness in low as 2 wash cycles.

Seierra Design said in their testing, their treated down retains 80% of its DWR at 20 washes.

A company that uses Quix Down said their DWR treatment is rated for 20 wash cycles. They were not able to provide any other details on the DWR treatment.

 

[todd kelly]

Here is some interesting info on treated down from Outdoor gear lab. People that know a ton more about gear then I do.



[video=youtube;pIaWk0b8Jro]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIaWk0b8Jro[/video]

Reply from OGL

"Yes, washing by CO2 Nexus restored loft. Through OudoorGearLab testing of many hydrophobic down bags and jackets we are seeing that treated down tends to clump up more and faster than untreated down, which is a drawback for long trips where you can't/don't wash a jacket. But even so, the Encapsil is a phenomenal parka. See the OGL Encapsil review for more info."

 

[orionsbrother]

So, if you're thinking of a treated down quilt or bag, you should figure on using a silk liner or something to help contain skin oils, clean with liquid carbon dioxide and expect earlier clumping?

Any difference between treated and untreated in compressed size or ability to regain loft after compression? What if the quilt, bag or jacket is neglected and left compressed for a long period?

I appreciate you sharing your research Todd.

 

[Matt Cashell]

So, if you're thinking of a treated down quilt or bag, you should figure on using a silk liner or something to help contain skin oils, clean with liquid carbon dioxide and expect earlier clumping?

I would say that is a little bit too broad a brush. I used the Kelty Ignite 20 bag over the last year, and I have had zero issues with clumping. I have had several regular down products clump up pretty bad over the years.

Even in the video above, the narrator mentions the MH Nitrous wasn't having the same problem, and that is a treated down product.

 

[orionsbrother]

BB - Yeah it was broad brush. I was being a little facetious. I apologize, but it wasn't some kind of statement. I really am curious. In the video, the narrator suggests that the clumping may have been due to skin oils. If skin oils and washing can be problematic with treated down, are guys using some sort of liner?

I'm giving a quilt a try this year. I've been doing some research and if the used quilt that I'm buying works for me, I'm considering a future purchase of an EE quilt with treated down in a better length for me. Because of a brush with hypothermia, I've always been a synthetic guy. But I'm going to be doing more hunts where the weight penalty will be greater.

I'm hoping that treated down will provide a little more peace of mind with the reduced weight and bulk.

But I understand that nothing is perfect. If there are trade-offs in longevity or special care, I just want to be aware of them before making a decision to lay out the dough. I don't rotate through lots of different gear, buying, selling and swapping. I tend to live with my decisions for quite a while.

You could say that I'm where gear goes to die.

 

[Matt Cashell]

BB - Yeah it was broad brush. I was being a little facetious. I apologize, but it wasn't some kind of statement. I really am curious. In the video, the narrator suggests that the clumping may have been due to skin oils. If skin oils and washing can be problematic with treated down, are guys using some sort of liner?

No need to apologize, OB. I wonder exactly what happened to that Patagonia coat in the video. It sounds like the skin oils thing was pretty much speculaton. Even if skin oils do affect DWR down, I would suppose the other components of the piece play a big role too.

In speaking with some folks at SHOT, they were saying DWR down had an affect on breathability, which makes sense to me, and subjectively, the Ignite did seem to breathe well.

I am going to do a video on the Kelty bag sometime soon. It is a solid bag at a reasonable price. Personally, I wouldn't make a buying choice based on whether or not the product has DWR down, but I wouldn't let it turn me away either. I see DWR down as a little extra insurance against mild moisture, but the product is still down, and should be treated as such. IMO, synthetic is still a better choice if you think you will be getting your bag wet.

 

[orionsbrother]

Yep. I've got my synthetic bags for the moist trips. If switching to a quilt works out to my liking, my wife will adopt the used quilt (she sleeps like a rock regardless) and I may order a longer new quilt with DWR down.

So the choice that I'm looking at, assuming that a quilt seems to work with my thrashing sleep style, is; "Do I order the quilt with DWR down or not?"

I'm wondering what are the downsides to DWR down besides the price.

 

[Matt Cashell]

I'm wondering what are the downsides to DWR down besides the price.

I don't know if DWR down by itself adds that much to the price. the Kelty Ignite is $200 retail.

 

[Kevin Root]

I'll attach another link on reasons already mentioned on bag care. I'm guilty on some of them on the list, not carrying a lot of extra clothes so a lightweight liner is what I need but getting the bag dirty, body oils, etc takes a lot of the loft out or clumps it up. It will be interesting to see how some of the treated downs will hold up over time.

http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/caring-sleeping-bag.html