Don’t need no rear bag - S2H University

Decided that I would never use a rear bag unless it was handy, so when I rifle hunt I have a crosstac ultra light with an S clip on my bino harness, it’s faster than taking my harness off, for me, but I have improvised before I did this, I also rarely if ever get a nice prone shot… but I like the fact that this makes me think about building shooting positions which is always a good idea
 
Ok. I didn’t say you can or can’t. I can say in nearing 100 students in S2H classes so far- not one has used the rear bag on day 1 like they just knew they could. Somehow the “I get my rear bag in 2 seconds” turns into a total cluster the moment there is any stress at all.
This is the truth right here. After being shown how to use the bino-harness, a rear bag will almost always be a distant 2nd choice.

@Formidilosus, always remember Jesus loves you.
 
I’m using my lightweight rear bag this morning because I’m fat right now and old, and my knees suck from too many years of hockey. Really need to get back into the gym!

Kneeling with front Spartan bipod, backpack for rear support. After a wind hold correction on the first shot (winds are 12-18 MPH) I made 3 hits in a row at 426 yards like this, steep uphill angle shot.

Screenshot of a video of the 4 shots.

IMG_1269.jpeg

I think there are too many uses for me for the lightweight bag to ditch it from my pack anytime soon. Especially since I will be using the new Teratorn pack this season and I can stuff it in the shock cord for instant access.
 
Nice demo.


I'm envious of your master sporter and your ability to dent primers in socks from the comfort of your basement!

The MS is pretty slick, worthy to chase down. I’m very fortunate to live where I do and be able to shoot off the porch.
 
Nice! I love hearing about all the practical tips out of S2H. It’s like a back to the basics course focused on what is actually needed to shoot.

I will still carry an ultralight bag because of its use with a tripod and kneeling on it. I rarely shoot prone, and the last thing I want to grab in the desert where I while I am laying down prone is a rock or stick and turn over a scorpion…
Scorpions just aren't tall enough to be good rear bad substitutes I guess?
 
Nice! I love hearing about all the practical tips out of S2H. It’s like a back to the basics course focused on what is actually needed to shoot.

I will still carry an ultralight bag because of its use with a tripod and kneeling on it. I rarely shoot prone, and the last thing I want to grab in the desert where I while I am laying down prone is a rock or stick and turn over a scorpion…
Doubles as a great pillow!
 
I'm not really qualified to weigh into this as I've not done the S2H course, I have no formal training whatsoever, I don't get to hunt but a couple of weeks a year in total, I don't really shoot much long range, and my performance at the single NRL Hunter match I shot bordered on the abysmal (scope lost zero twice and finding targets on the clock is hard). But I can relay some personal experience.

As @Bluumoon and @T_Widdy demonstrated, using your bino harness as a rear bag is simple and pretty intuitive. How do I know this? Because when I shot an NRL Hunter Match this spring, I forgot to grab my schmedium bag when setting up or switching positions at least 3 times. (The stresser from the clock is real.) Thanks to reading about using a bino harnes (or about anything) as a rear bag on rokslide, I at least had the presence of mind to try using my bino harness instead of getting up and going after my bag. It worked every time I needed it to, including the first tme when I hadn't even seen that demo'd before. No, they weren't little bitty targets really far away, but it still worked for the use case.

Do I still have a lightweight bag strapped to the outside of my pack? Yes, yes I do. Time permitting, I'll still use one, and I envision other uses for that bag that aren't a rear bag in prone (throne over a rock, log, or my tripod for example, and then using frame of pack for rear support from sitting/kneeling). But if the task is to just drop down and make a prone shot as quickly as possible, I'm probalby not going to bother trying to unclip the rear bag. Mostly because I'll probably forget about it in rush to get down prone, and then my binos will be right there anwyay.

If I can do it, so can you. Even if you don't plan for it to be primary, practicing it can't hurt as you never know when you'll leave your bag behind up the hill for whatever reason.
 
How do you use the bino harness as a rear bag if you don't take it off? LOL.
The OP went to the S2H course and is now FIRMLY in the bino harness as rear bag camp. I guess he just made that up by himself.

This is ridiculous. ROFLMAO. Moving on from this mess...
You dont take it off... why would you need to?
 
What worked best for me was an empty SG phone case attachment on my gun shoulder side of my bino harness. I could fold it up and manipulate it however I needed to in order to support my off hand pinching the stock. Learned that one when my phone fell out and someone was yelling at me to shoot.
 
I have seen some that are long enough…
Back about 5 years ago the wife and I were hiking the Arizona Trail. When we were south of Tuscon I saw one that was big enough that I tried to figure out a way to train it to carry my pack for me.
 
I agree 100% with this.

Master the rifle first. Don’t lie to yourself. Prove it. No gear as a crutch, just execute the task.

That absolutely comes first.

My addition is a truth stacked on it:

A rifleman can add in gear carefully and thoughtfully. Of course, he will test and practice to master it as a second level skill—because gear never really replaces skill.

If you can’t do it without gear, then you really can’t do it.

It’s not persuasive to say to me that most or almost all of the people with gear fall apart when asked on demand. It’s clear they never completed step one to get to step two.

My point is a “Yes—And” response. Yes, rifleman should get competent with a pack and a rock. And, the skilled rifleman can thoughtfully add gear that improves total skill if he builds competency with practice and testing.
" ...and, the skilled rifleman can thoughtfully add gear that improves total skill if he builds competency with practice and testing."
HOLD TF ON! The marketing team from every company has made it clear to me that I don't need skill and competency if I buy their gear!
What is this witchcraft that you speak of Devil?!
 
" ...and, the skilled rifleman can thoughtfully add gear that improves total skill if he builds competency with practice and testing."
HOLD TF ON! The marketing team from every company has made it clear to me that I don't need skill and competency if I buy their gear!
What is this witchcraft that you speak of Devil?!
Its true, but only LS Wild gear... lol

A light trigger can make groups shrink. A better stock, a lighter recoiling rifle, a better scope, etc. They aren't completely wrong.

But, it doesn't actually make a better rifleman. This is the lie hidden in the truth. A good rifleman can control the press of a gnarly trigger and shoot small groups. And, deal with all the other stuff.
 
I know the bino rest works. And I tested it without taking it off. It’s clearly fast and effective.

There are those who poo poo it VS their bags and they don’t train hard with enough variation to understand. They may be in denial and ignorance, so they need to do the timed drills honestly and see where their skill is with a bag before making a judgement.

Then, maybe there are the rare few who train hard with their gear including a bag, and “don’t get it” because they can perform with their gear and practice.

Either way, arguing blanket statements is silly to me. I can usually see both sides, and find where I agree with both sides.

Obviously, I sell ultralight bags that Form is telling you that you don’t need. Unfortunately, it’s true. You don’t necessarily need one.

On the other hand… I want to sell you a bag. So, I will explain my difference in opinion. Hopefully you will understand that I don’t think anyone is wrong.

I hope you understand why you can keep your bag, and that you can become a killer with the same skills and proficiency as non-baggers. You may understand there is a reason why a bag is an important and indispensable tool, for you. It could help you explain it to others and eliminate doubt about its use.

I think that Forms positions are always reasonable, and almost universally data driven, result oriented, and consistent with proven marksmanship principles. But, because it is outside the norm, it can drive people nuts and they fight the idea without addressing the data known to Form. He is also misunderstood widely. And, I get the sense that he doesn’t have time for nonsense and nuance.

Many just don’t understand cause reading stuff and explaining stuff on the internet is hard. I am at fault there at times. Then there are trolls.

Whenever I “disagree” with Form, and this is one of those times, it is not usually about the underlying principle, but some offshoot that adopts a different assumption, different value on outcome, or different situation.

We know all general rules have exceptions. Here, I will adopt Forms rules as the general rule that should apply to everyone evenly. And, I actually believe it to be true.

The value of knowing exceptions can only come if you know the basic rules, and the exceptions are actually not in conflict with the general rule because they apply to a very small substantive change in the underlying situation that the general rule is being applied to.

For some, perhaps the demonstration of the bino method will solve a misunderstanding by those who can’t picture it. As I understand the method, functionally it is a gap filler and creates a base for the offhand to then adjust elevation with the firm support on top of the top object. The stock may or may not rest on the chosen object.

As far as the bag, I will review my position as an exception: that a rear bag can practically be as fast and effective. First let’s look at Forms justified and evidence based point that he repeatedly he sees shooters who can’t effectively use their bag on his tests, even though they say they can.

Self deception is a universal flaw because humans have a mechanism to lie to themselves. Hence, the value in repetition of “we suck” as a foundational principle from Form. I agree. But, that is not relevant to analysis of the bag/no bag comparison.

I believe that the large numbers of dudes can’t keep track of gear and time out on the test. I also believe that those dudes still suck at the same rate as non bag guys. The bags are irrelevant variable if you suck.

I believe the common denominator for those that suck is the failure to practice appropriate skills in similar conditions to the test.

Failure with a bag and failure without a bag derive from the same error—sucking at the fundamentals of marksmanship. So, in Forms class, merely giving a sucky shooter a bag cannot help him, it can add complexity to a task he already sucks at. I don’t think a bag is necessary to accomplish his goal consistent with the class outcomes and his observations.

Learning that marksmanship is not about the gear is important. It is not the same as gear always detracts from marksmanship.

Practically speaking, I think that training has to start from the fundamentals up. And, the S2H method and class curriculum as I understand it is among the best for training riflemen to kill that I know of for hunters.

And, asking a sucky shooter to include the act of storing a bag and then deploying it might add a complexity that would impede the quick level of improvement in a class focused on fundamentals. So adding a rear bag to the S2H method is unnecessary to its goal, and possibly/likely counter productive because it doesn’t fit with Form’s flow. It certainly might detract from his message that it’s the shooter not the gear…

Here is a though experiment, what happens if another class kept it just as simple, but taught how to store and deploy a bag in an effective manner, and otherwise did as many rounds and reps as the S2H?

Would the addition of a bag make them less lethal, irregardless of a few seconds more?

Would the addition of an easy to deploy bag add any time if it offset the time needed to adjust the harness? Or, find a suitable rock or stick within reach?

Are there brain/physical types that will benefit from a bag derived system more than the Form system?

Would the faster adjustability of the bag for elevation offset any increase in deployment time?

Is a possible increase of lethality with a bag a suitable justification to add say 3-5 more seconds to the time to eliminate timing out? Would the extra three seconds also improve the non bag equally?

In the end, I think the reason I will always use a bag is for benefits that I am willing to gain for mere seconds in penalty. And, I am already carrying it for situations that fall outside the “Form drop and kill drill.”

Another justification is that if it truly comes down to those seconds, I personally don’t know that I would feel comfortable with that shot in a moment where the small time differential is in play. It’s partly a brain focus thing. But, I may change my view and understanding if I practiced it. I just don’t know.

And, make your choice, and remember it’s based on your reasons.

And, yes, today, I probably fail on Forms timed tests, and score low even on the untimed. I know I suck at the standing and kneeling unsupported cause I haven’t practiced it at all.

But, give me a tripod and some bags, and I can kill stuff based on the locations and hunting style I have employed and learned. I don’t need to be fast, but I want to be so I will be practicing.

@Bluumoon can tell you how I sucked at the drills and used the most time on the stages we shot. I hope he also shares who scored the most hits in our fun competition…
Thank you for the write up. I took the class. Learned how to use the Bino bag, and it is an effective tool for me now. I plan to incorporate a rear bag and train that way also. Love the depth of your explanation.
 
Its true, but only LS Wild gear... lol

A light trigger can make groups shrink. A better stock, a lighter recoiling rifle, a better scope, etc. They aren't completely wrong.

But, it doesn't actually make a better rifleman. This is the lie hidden in the truth. A good rifleman can control the press of a gnarly trigger and shoot small groups. And, deal with all the other stuff.
As much as I hate the price tag associated with the gear, there IS something to be said for knowing that the weak link in the system is the nut behind the bolt... AKA ME.
I was working drills with my shooting partner yesterday and we kept getting weird wind results that didn't match up POI with our inputs. I'm talking at sub-600 yards and our "predicted" wind holds were off by nearly 50%. Despite having some of the best gear that money can buy we had, and identified, a training weakness that we both had. Part of it was our unfamiliarity with our electronics and the other part was us being sh!t at calling the variable winds here on our rolling mtn top.
If someone comes out with a device or gadget that can adjust for wind like current apps adjust for gravity based drop I will hurt myself getting my credit card out!
 
Not exactly hunt-friendly, but this is pretty close.
I've seen this in Eric Cortina's ethical hunting and 1 MOA challenge videos.
Both my shooting partner and I have rifle ranges on our property from 0-1 mile split between us. We have recently added wind socks at various points to try to learn cross-canyon and mtn top winds. This might be a valuable addition for us for range use/practice. We had a training session yesterday and we were consistently off on wind calls by 50% despite not shooting past 600 yards. That is even using the wind socks. The amount that we still have to learn is intimidating.

Edit to add: One thing I am trying to learn is the effect of thermals on game animals via a vie my fat ass sneaking in on them. I didn't even think of the effects of thermal winds on shooting until today where I suspect we started seeing it. That and shooting into a head wind.
-Doc
 
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