Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[omicron1792]

I voted no.

I hunt with my 300 WM or 300 WSM for all big game. They both have brakes and I can watch impacts from both rifles. They both kill stuff. I shoot them often…more than my 556 guns. I shot them both yesterday, in fact. My 300 WSM literally has recoil in between a 556 or .243. Before I threaded the muzzles they killed stuff too. I would feel more than comfortable using my mags on a fancy hunt abroad. I’d also have the confidence to reach out farther ballistically as I shoot these rifles 600+ on the reg. Neither rifle is really all that light…and I’m OK with that…I train.

I recently bought three boxes of 77 TMKs for my 556. I’m intrigued by the threads here on Rockslide, on the subject of killing big game with the 77 TMK. Perhaps I’ll try it this year on my deer tags. I do have an open mind.

With all that being said, there are a lot of internet sheep here on Rockslide. I read through the posts of inexperience, false claims, and recoil shy users here and shake my head. I think this is an interesting thread because it shows all of the holes if you’ve been around the block a time or two.

I find it interesting how folks on here say they’d use a different guide if they weren’t allowed to use their 223/556. Right…. What if ALL the outfitters/guides said no? How about Africa? I’d love to watch a conversation between a 77 TMK die hard and an African PH and the debate on how they should be allowed to bring their AR on safari for larger, dangerous game. But I guess they’re all just fudds, right?

The Africa thing is a red herring.

1. Many of those animals are thick skinned, different ballgame.

2. Most countries have 375 minimum on dangerous game.

3. Stopping power on charging dangerous game is only place where I now think “energy” of the bullet matters.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Now where at the “but what about African dangerous game” point.

Im genuinely curious what you think about this: I’ve seen a handful of deer sized animals killed with a 45-70 with 250gr solids. Bullet passes right through, and creates a wound channel about 1 1/2” wide, not a lot of tissue damage. A 77 TMK creates WAY more visible damage. But every animal I’ve seen hit with that 250 hits the dirt in its tracks. I hate to even call it “knock down power” just because of all the fudd associated with that phrase. But there’s something happening that’s not killing by massive tissue damage. Any thoughts on the mechanism that’s going on?


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[ElPollo]

I understand. But again just based on ballistics at distance even with 77gr I'm unlikely to make it my primary. My misses on hunts/targets are by and large related to wind error (especially beyond 400y). If I'm not bothered by recoil from the 6.5 or 270, why am I going to downgrade to much worse wind and elevation performance in the 223 regardless of equivalent terminal ballistics for the kill?

But I find that I am hunting in situations that can be 50y out to 800y. If I'm only carrying one rifle to cover those ranges, it's not going to be a 223. If I was primarily shooting 2-300y and closer? Sure I'd consider the 223 as a primary based on my own experience with it.

Granted, a 223 is not a long range gun. I hear you on your 270 and Swede for longer ranges. I’ve been a 270 man for over 25 years, but it is sort of a dog for bullet availability. Most of the bullets available have G1 BCs in the upper 0.3 to mid 0.4 range and end up in a comparable wind bracket to the 223. And the recoils is more than three times that of the 223. If you handload the 270, you can get more out of it if you can find good bullets. The 6.5 has way better bullet availability to get you into a better wind bracket, but the Swede also doesn’t offer a big improvement in factory offerings. So in most cases, you have better gas at longer ranges, but not better wind performance. The 6 creed or slow twist 243 with 108 gr ELDM would have a better wind bracket than both. I seriously doubt anything you hit with that 6 mm ELDM would know the difference between that and the Swede or 270.

 

[ElPollo]

3. Stopping power on charging dangerous game is only place where I now think “energy” of the bullet matters.

There is no such thing as stopping power. Stopping happens from CNS impacts or from loss of blood and oxygen to the brain. That’s it.

 

[Fireflyfishing]

I believe it's the point that these discussions always end up at "dangerous African game". Classic strawman.

I guess you might as well take the 223 since most folks that go to Africa buy a mega-magnum they can't shoot (and haven't practiced with) and rely on their ph to actually kill their wounded quarry. Same/same. Nevermind the minimum legal requirements in most African countries for "dangerous game" that make the strawman even more ridiculous.

At the end of the day, one wouldn’t be able to use a 223/556 for dangerous game hunting as there are cartridge minimums for most or all countries that allow legal hunting in Africa.

My point, I find it funny that the 77 TMK crowd points to outfitters/guides and laws/regs being incompetent if they don’t agree with small caliber usage.

I’m not debating anyone here whether the 77 TMK will kill animals…or even big animals. Like I posted earlier, I have some in the hopper I plan to use.

 

[RMM]

The difference is they are PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS that have to kill the dangerous game when their client fails to do so unlike an elk guide in North America. They use double rifles to get successive shots off quickly. Yes, the seconds shot would be damn hard to hit on target. No argument there.

I’m not putting anyone on a pedestal. But, I’m not going to go to their country and tell them how to hunt there when they’ve been at it…successfully I might add…for very long time.

I would add, many folks that visit Africa want to use the gnarly mag rifle for the plains game…because they’re in Africa. The PHs prefer lighter calibers for that type of quarry for the same reasons mentioned on these 223/556 threads.

You do realize a lot of poachers in Africa use AR's/AK's for poaching elephants and rhinos, right?

 

[Fireflyfishing]

You do realize a lot of poachers in Africa use AR's/AK's for poaching elephants and rhinos, right?

Sure. Poachers aren’t looking for one shot kills and meat recovery. They’re also not trying to save a client’s life or their own if they spoof a shot. A poacher likely wouldn’t have a problem mag dumping into an animal to recover whatever body part they’ll sell to somewhere in Asia.

I’ve never not said lower calibers won’t kill big animals.

 

[omicron1792]

You do realize a lot of poachers in Africa use AR's/AK's for poaching elephants and rhinos, right?

Yeah. Also a red herring. They have them and cheap ammo and dump a clip into the animal. Not because it’s best hunting round.

77TMK would struggle to get to vitals of Cape buffalo, and head shots for elephants and hippo it’s probably not the best choice

I do believe it would be devastating on plains game though.

I had a big debate over there about 223 being perfect for tiny ten and was told 375 with solid was perfect round. Ha. Everyone’s got their thing.

 

[Gorp2007]

We started out with “bet you cowards wouldn’t use this on a fancy sheep or exotic antelope” and now we’re about five posts away from “not enough KE to reach a hippo brain if you shoot it in the ass.”

 

[Formidilosus]

Im genuinely curious what you think about this: I’ve seen a handful of deer sized animals killed with a 45-70 with 250gr solids. Bullet passes right through, and creates a wound channel about 1 1/2” wide, not a lot of tissue damage. A 77 TMK creates WAY more visible damage. But every animal I’ve seen hit with that 250 hits the dirt in its tracks.

How many animal have you seen shot with 45/70? I’ve shot and seen shot quite a few with a variety of bullets and there were no more instant drops than anything else. The usual was get hit, run 30-100 yards and fall.

 

[omicron1792]

How many animal have you seen shot with 45/70? I’ve shot and seen shot quite a few with a variety of bullets and there were no more instant drops than anything else. The usual was get hit, run 30-100 yards and fall.

Don’t you think that you have to get some form of cns disruption to get DRT? Massive chest trauma can cause that too

 

[Formidilosus]

Don’t you think that you have to get some form of cns disruption to get DRT? Massive chest trauma can cause that too

Yes, for an actual DRT. Meaning, the shot hits, animal’s rear legs go limp and appear to curl up, butt hit the ground then head whips up and comes down”; for that- the CNS must be disrupted.

 

[omicron1792]

Yes, for an actual DRT. Meaning, the shot hits, animal’s rear legs go limp and appear to curl up, butt hit the ground then head whips up and comes down”; for that- the CNS must be disrupted.

Bow hunting has helped me understand harvesting animals much better. And really fits well with the 223 debate imo.

 

[eric1115]

How many animal have you seen shot with 45/70? I’ve shot and seen shot quite a few with a variety of bullets and there were no more instant drops than anything else. The usual was get hit, run 30-100 yards and fall.

Same for 12 gauge slugs. 400 gr prijectile at 1600 (IIRC, it's been more than a decade since I killed something with a slug). Same observed behavior. Not many DRT, lots of 30-100 yard runs.

 

[fwafwow]

What if you were going on a hunt where you knew there was a chance that space aliens would show up and they had armor that was specifically designed to stop small diameter tipped match bullets, but was very vulnerable to large diameter solids? Would you use the .223 then? Huh? Wouldja?

 

[Jake Larsen]

Don’t you think that you have to get some form of cns disruption to get DRT? Massive chest trauma can cause that too

This is what I suspect. Something about the slowish moving very heavy object impact creates cns disruption. It’s a very different looking wound channel than a controlled expansion bonded bullet.


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[Jake Larsen]

Bow hunting has helped me understand harvesting animals much better. And really fits well with the 223 debate imo.

It’s pretty simply with a bow. Bleeding. Thats it. There’s a lot more physics going on when a projectile is moving at very high speed. Thus the debate


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[Jake Larsen]

Yes, for an actual DRT. Meaning, the shot hits, animal’s rear legs go limp and appear to curl up, butt hit the ground then head whips up and comes down”; for that- the CNS must be disrupted.

I saw that on some of the 6 or 7 whitetails ive seen shot with a 45-70 marlin lever action. One other was running, and piled up in a heap. Others died very very quickly. I realize it’s not a massive sample size. But it was enough for me to corroborate the choice of those type of rounds for stopping charging dangerous game.

I don’t think anyone would seriously argue that they would take anything but a big heavy in this scenario. So if that’s the case, what’s the mechanics?

Edit: to be clear, I’m NOT arguing against the 77tmk ect ect for use in regular hunting scenarios. I’m just interested to hear where the line is for you, and the discussion draws out more of the thinking behind bullet performance/selection.


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[eoperator]

I have pondered this subject alot lately for a guided elk hunt next year, while not huge $ it is alot for us.

I would like to use a 6prc but if it is going to make unwanted "waves" a different rifle might be used instead.

 

[omicron1792]

It’s pretty simply with a bow. Bleeding. Thats it. There’s a lot more physics going on when a projectile is moving at very high speed. Thus the debate


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So…

You don’t get drt with bow. But we know tissue destruction is what kills.

I saw that on some of the 6 or 7 whitetails ive seen shot with a 45-70 marlin lever action. One other was running, and piled up in a heap. Others died very very quickly. I realize it’s not a massive sample size. But it was enough for me to corroborate the choice of those type of rounds for stopping charging dangerous game.

I don’t think anyone would seriously argue that they would take anything but a big heavy in this scenario. So if that’s the case, what’s the mechanics?


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if big heavy hits bone or does not exit, then all that energy is dumped into the animal. This causes tissue damage and cns disruption.

Also do to size and muscle a fragmenting bullet with 10-12” of penetration might not reach vitals. Severing blood vessels is what kills

I agree with form. For most animals on the planet a 223 with tmk or eldm creates massive trauma which easily and humanely harvest the animal