Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[Thegman]

Put your junior high school math cap on if you want the equation.

300 PRC
Bullet 200 gr x 22” length of travel in barrel = 4400
90 gr of powder that has moved it’s center of mass 1/2 the 24” barrel length = 1080

Those together have to equal 8-1/2 lb (59,500 gr) x distance rifle moves.

(4400 +1080)/59,500 = .092”

6.5 creedmoor
(140 x 22.5 + 44 x 12)/59,500 = .062”

223
(77 x 22.5 + 25 x 12)/59,500 = .034”

When I remember something wrong I don’t have any problem admitting it - the distance is much less than 1/4” - the Creedmoor is right at 1/16”, the 300 PRC is 3/32” and the 223 is about 1/32”. Old age is a bitch. Lol

Your equations are applying conservation of momentum to the system (and getting the same results I posted above), not conservation of center of mass.

 

[TaperPin]

You'r equations are applying conservation of momentum to the system (and getting the same results I posted above), not conservation of center of mass.

Momentum is velocity x mass. I don’t have any velocities listed, but yes we are on the same page.

 

[Thegman]

I fall in Group A.

And for me, I fully expect heartbeats to stop via 88 ELD M and 223AI Montana this year, including black bears, stone sheep, elk, moose, and deer. To the tune that it will be the only rifle carried this year. (Well, maybe my Faux Ti 223AI)

Thanks. Just from browsing through, it seems one or maybe two of the New Zealand guys said "no". You're a "yes", I assume form is too. So 2-1 or 1-1 so far as far as I can tell.

Someone mentioned this as an "appeal to authority". Not at all, but those in group A have the most educated perspective and most relevant answers IMO. I'm personally a "no", but due to lack of personal experience (ignorance) with using the 223 on big game (only 7 examples at this point) and vastly more with other stuff I've been using for 30 years.

It is interesting to me that the group A people aren't unanimous but have different answers. Nothing wrong with that either, but interesting to me to read the different experiences they've had.

 

[KHntr]

Has anybody posted up pics of a stone or desert sheep hunt where they used a 223????

I didn’t think so.

I should be back on August 7th or 8th, be patient.

 

[KHntr]

Thanks. Just from browsing through, it seems one or maybe two of the New Zealand guys said "no". You're a "yes", I assume form is too. So 2-1 or 1-1 so far as far as I can tell.

Someone mentioned this as an "appeal to authority". Not at all, but those in group A have the most educated perspective and most relevant answers IMO. I'm personally a "no", but due to lack of personal experience (ignorance) with using the 223 on big game (only 7 examples at this point) and vastly more with other stuff I've been using for 30 years.

It is interesting to me that the group A people aren't unanimous but have different answers. Nothing wrong with that either, but interesting to me to read the different experiences they've had.

True enough, but the New Zealand guys aren’t comparing apples to apples either when they are talking about 55’s from 222’s which are likely spun 1:12 or 1:14.
I’ve smacked a lot of critters (and had gf’s and kids smack stuff) with 75 Amax’s, 45/50/53/55/62 mono’s, 40/50 vmax’s, and 88 ELD M’s, from 1:14, 1:12, 1:9, 1:8, and 1:7 twist rates.
Twist rate and impact velocity plays a very big part in terminal effects as near as I can see, and an 88 from a 1:7 is an absolute ******* monster of a combination.

That said, in the interest of comparison sake I should probably load some 75 Amax’s and see what the difference is when spun 1:7 vs the 1:9 I was using before.

 

[Thegman]

True enough, but the New Zealand guys aren’t comparing apples to apples either when they are talking about 55’s from 222’s which are likely spun 1:12 or 1:14.
I’ve smacked a lot of critters (and had gf’s and kids smack stuff) with 75 Amax’s, 45/50/53/55/62 mono’s, 40/50 vmax’s, and 88 ELD M’s, from 1:14, 1:12, 1:9, 1:8, and 1:7 twist rates.
Twist rate and impact velocity plays a very big part in terminal effects as near as I can see, and an 88 from a 1:7 is an absolute ******* monster of a combination.

That said, in the interest of comparison sake I should probably load some 75 Amax’s and see what the difference is when spun 1:7 vs the 1:9 I was using before.

Are you running your 88s in a 223? If so, what barrel length and velocity? I do have a 1:7, but being a 16" AR barrel, they probably wouldn't work even with windowed mags...but I've certainly thought about it.

 

[yeti12]

Put your junior high school math cap on if you want the equation.

300 PRC
Bullet 200 gr x 22” length of travel in barrel = 4400
90 gr of powder that has moved it’s center of mass 1/2 the 24” barrel length = 1080

Those together have to equal 8-1/2 lb (59,500 gr) x distance rifle moves.

(4400 +1080)/59,500 = .092”

6.5 creedmoor
(140 x 22.5 + 44 x 12)/59,500 = .062”

223
(77 x 22.5 + 25 x 12)/59,500 = .034”

When I remember something wrong I don’t have any problem admitting it - the distance is much less than 1/4” - the Creedmoor is right at 1/16”, the 300 PRC is 3/32” and the 223 is about 1/32”. Old age is a bitch. Lol

Remember when many many pages ago I said guns don't move anywhere close to 1/4" with bullet in the bore? And there's probably no gun that's shoulder fired that would achieve that?

Then you rambled for multiple pages.

let's not do that again.

 

[RockAndSage]

We all fear the hypothetical situation where the gear holds us back at the top end much much more than we fear the real situation where the gear holds us back because we don't have the skill level needed to actually use it to its full potential

^^ This, so much. It's similar to one of the rules I live by and teach: maximize capability before adding capacity.

It has saved me many, many thousands of dollars, and has been far better for my shooting (and other pursuits) than stacks of new gear that, as you point out, people often barely know how to use (looking at you, mildot). It's also great for pacing training and clarifying exactly what next piece of gear you both really would benefit from, and are ready for.

 

[RobHazmat89]

No replacement for displacement. I'd rather just have the extra horsepower

 

[RockAndSage]

Comfortable is relative, but shooting 10,000 plus rounds a year in extremely heavy winds and broken terrain.

With 77gr TMK in .223, and doing slow, aimed fire out of a bolt gun, about how many rounds can you expect out of a quality stainless barrel before needing to replace it? I'm more tuned into lifespans of AR barrels, than bolt guns, and would like to get a rough idea.

 

[Thegman]

Remember when many many pages ago I said guns don't move anywhere close to 1/4" with bullet in the bore? And there's probably no gun that's shoulder fired that would achieve that?

Then you rambled for multiple pages.

let's not do that again.

And that movement calculation would be free recoil with the rifle sitting on a frictionless table. Pretty hard to calculate what happens when benched in something and pushed into your shoulder, but would be significantly less than what I came up with, even using my lightest rifles, I would think.

I bet that H&R single shot 12 gauge my brother had when I was 16, shooting 3" magnum slugs -might- hit 0.25"...but that was just barely a shoulder fireable gun. Once we filled our jackets with padding on our shoulders and tried to trick another guy into shooting it. He was like a trap shy coyote and wouldn't take the bait; he knew something wasn't quite right.

 

[KHntr]

Are you running your 88s in a 223? If so, what barrel length and velocity? I do have a 1:7, but being a 16" AR barrel, they probably wouldn't work even with windowed mags...but I've certainly thought about it.

223AI, in triplicate. 21.5” Kimber Montana, a 22” 700, and a 22.5” 700. I built the first one in a Faux Ti pattern when my Montana was ready for a new tube, so that I wouldn’t be without a 223AI over the fall. Shot what could be the first moose with an 88 ELD M and my main hunting buddy said minutes later “I need one of those, pretty please”, so I sourced parts for one for him.
My 700 is right at 2700fps with formed brass, and his is at 2750. Same load, same dies, same make of barrel chambered by the same smith with the same reamer. (That said, I did zero load work up, just made an educated guess and loaded 6 rounds, 1 to make sure I was going to keep my blinkers, and 5 to see if the groups were round. Still a bit of room for more velocity, but didn’t see the need given the accuracy.)
Haven’t finished forming brass yet with the Montana, just ran the same load in it to see if it showed promise, given it was a different make of barrel and different smith. (Shoots better than the 700’s, so with some work up it’ll likely “work”…..

 

[Southern Lights]

True enough, but the New Zealand guys aren’t comparing apples to apples either when they are talking about 55’s from 222’s which are likely spun 1:12 or 1:14.
I’ve smacked a lot of critters (and had gf’s and kids smack stuff) with 75 Amax’s, 45/50/53/55/62 mono’s, 40/50 vmax’s, and 88 ELD M’s, from 1:14, 1:12, 1:9, 1:8, and 1:7 twist rates.
Twist rate and impact velocity plays a very big part in terminal effects as near as I can see, and an 88 from a 1:7 is an absolute ******* monster of a combination.

That said, in the interest of comparison sake I should probably load some 75 Amax’s and see what the difference is when spun 1:7 vs the 1:9 I was using before.

To state clearly, .223 is perhaps my favorite calibre. Easy to and cheap to shoot. Because it's easy and cheap to shoot you practice more. Practicing more virtually always trumps what calibre people pick.

I've laid down quite a few animals with .223 including a number of deer (mostly wallabies though). Other mates of mine have laid out piles of deer with .223. Yes we usually are shooting 55-62gr or so simply based on availability here and price.

I have been speaking again with some that do quite a bit of culling and guiding. In general, 223 works fine on deer sized animals. But just know that you can have cases of them running and I personally have never experienced one going down as fast with the 223 as with a 270 or my 30 calibres. But maybe it's the bullet. However the 270 is moving WAY faster on impact and with an SST bullet it makes a hell of a wound that many people don't like.

But the 223 with a solid double lung shot the deer do not go anywhere far. Some guys here are using monos in 223 with great success. I may try a heavier bullet to try if I find the time. However if I am going deer hunting specifically, I just grab the 270 because I know it will be OK out to 800m for me. I don't need to worry about getting closer or what happens if I have to do an off angle on an animal.

When I read about people shooting 223 at extended ranges on animals, I think it's not a great idea. Down here guys that I know shoot a lot of 223 on animals limit to 300y and closer. This is my personal feeling as well. I like shooting 223 to extended ranges on steel, but the wind and lower impact compared to heavier calibres just doesn't appeal to me to try it on animals.

But if you keep your shots mostly under 300y (as most shots are), the 223 is certainly viable for deer and I wouldn't look at anyone weird for using it. I have seen it work so much for deer sized animals I don't doubt it's effective if used within reason.

Another shooter I know recently put down a red deer with a .17 HMR neck shot. If we go on recoil alone it has less than a 223, but I wouldn't say it's ideal for all deer hunting. He wouldn't say that either. It was just the rifle he had in his hand at the time and the deer happened to come alone.

A few more things about NZ shooters:

You should know a lot of 223 shooters here are doing head/neck shots which will lay out any animal if you are good enough to do it consistently.

In NZ you can buy suppressors over the counter. They are not a novelty here like in the US. Shooting suppressed is a major factor why you can be more accurate with a heavier calibre. My 223 shoots the easiest in centrefire, but my 6.5x55 is awfully close and shoots 140ELD-M very accurately. My 270 is a little more recoil than the 6.5 but hits a lot harder.

In NZ deer are considered invasive pests so there is effectively no deer season and no calibre restrictions. You can beat them over the head with a baseball bat and it would be legal.

 

[ElPollo]

Comfortable is relative, but shooting 10,000 plus rounds a year in extremely heavy winds and broken terrain. The 60mph shots had enough blowing snow to watch direction across the valley, plus the wind in the elks fur.




A wind meter- no one can guess it at those speeds without one correctly.





Not even remotely am I advocating people take those shots- quite the opposite. People and advertising acting as if shots past even 300 yards are easy is a serious problem. If someone isn’t shooting hundreds to thousands of rounds from a specific range, position, terrain, and scenario- don’t do it on an animal.
From everything I see the vast, vast majority should be keeping their shots even prone to sub 200 yards, and the dedicated hunters that actually shoot and practice should be staying inside about 400 to 450 yards.
If you are looking at a 600 yard shot and you haven’t shot hundreds of rounds from an identical, or extremely close scenario in practice (not from a bench on a range), you shouldn’t be taking that shot, and your success probability is low.

I will admit that in sustained winds over 30-40 mph, I am often subject to analysis paralysis. When you use a wind meter in those conditions you will often get a 20-30 mph variance in wind speed from gust to lull. That tends to make the calculator in my brain read “E” on a regular basis. If I were dependent on the protein, or less concerned about wounding, or if I shot a thousand rounds a year in those conditions I would be way more confident. Of those, the only one I can really control is the third, so I am trying to do more practice on ‘dirt-eating’ days.

 

[Formidilosus]

I've laid down quite a few animals with .223 including a number of deer (mostly wallabies though). Other mates of mine have laid out piles of deer with .223. Yes we usually are shooting 55-62gr or so simply based on availability here and price.

And there’s the difference. If we aren’t talking about the same thing, then we are just arguing. I have killed a lot of animals with all kinds of .224 bullets. There is a large difference between 75/80/88 gr ELD-M and X, 77gr and to a lesser extent 69gr TMK’s and any of the normal .224 bullets. The wound from 77gr TMK’s are closer, and often nearly identical to the .277 Hornady SST that you said you like. Go back through this thread and look at the pictures I posted and say that the 55-62gr bullets you are using creates winds like that- even on the exit side.

There are lots of bullets that kill deer and even elk in .224, but those bullets aren’t doing what the projectiles being discussed do- we have literally walked up to elk, made a fist and stuck it in the hole from a TMK. Federal Fusion 62, and Speer Gold Dot 62 and 75gr are great bullets, but even they (save the 75gr) don’t do what the ELD-M/X and TMK does.

If you continue to put your use of those .224 bullets as the same as what we, and all these threads are talking about- then it is a pointless conversation. I’m not trying to be rude here, but no one but only a couple guys are talking about conventional .224 bullets, and I am not understanding why some keep bringing them up. Also, despite what Tahr said- the 77gr TMK, and to a slightly lesser extent the heavy ELD-M and X bullets are different than conventional bullets when seen in large numbers.
A 55gr Sierra Gameking kills fine from a 223 usually, but in no way would I consider it to be an all around, all animal 0-500 or even 600 yard combo. More like a 300 yard one- as you stated. Yet without question in well over 200 whitetails, mule deer, and antelope; a couple dozen bear, moose, goats, and around 40 elk from less than 30 yards to 803 yards- the .224 calibers with fast twist and heavy match bullets is an all around, all animal killer. Keep their impact speeds above 1,800fps and they kill emphatically.


We log the time to incapacitation, distance traveled, and how many hits for each animal we kill. From .224 to .338 when using heavy for caliber tipped match bullets and VLD’s, the time to incapacitation is actually lowest with 6mm, then .224, then 6.5 and goes up as caliber does. Distance traveled is also lowest with 6mm and .224’s, followed closely by 6.5- though all are within 10 yards or so of each other. Amount of hits per animal ranges from 1-7, and is all over the map as per caliber- there has been no clear difference, save that shooters can shoot more rounds in the same time with less recoil and more shootable rifles.

 

[Formidilosus]

I will admit that in sustained winds over 30-40 mph, I am often subject to analysis paralysis. When you use a wind meter in those conditions you will often get a 20-30 mph variance in wind speed from gust to lull. That tends to make the calculator in my brain read “E” on a regular basis. If I were dependent on the protein, or less concerned about wounding, or if I shot a thousand rounds a year in those conditions I would be way more confident. Of those, the only one I can really control is the third, so I am trying to do more practice on ‘dirt-eating’ days.

Yeah people ought not be shooting in those high of winds. I’ve lived in a couple of the highest average wind regions in the US for a few years, shooting most weeks 3-5 days in it, in broken terrain and I pass a lot of shots. I also will use coping mechanisms that can help with a misread of wind.

 

[Southern Lights]

And there’s the difference. If we aren’t talking about the same thing, then we are just arguing. I have killed a lot of animals with all kinds of .224 bullets. There is a large difference between 75/80/88 gr ELD-M and X, 77gr and to a lesser extent 69gr TMK’s and any of the normal .224 bullets. The wound from 77gr TMK’s are closer, and often nearly identical to the .277 Hornady SST that you said you like. Go back through this thread and look at the pictures I posted and say that the 55-62gr bullets you are using creates winds like that- even on the exit side.

There are lots of bullets that kill deer and even elk in .224, but those bullets aren’t doing what the projectiles being discussed do- we have literally walked up to elk, made a fist and stuck it in the hole from a TMK. Federal Fusion 62, and Speer Gold Dot 62 and 75gr are great bullets, but even they (save the 75gr) don’t do what the ELD-M/X and TMK does.

If you continue to put your use of those .224 bullets as the same as what we, and all these threads are talking about- then it is a pointless conversation. I’m not trying to be rude here, but no one but only a couple guys are talking about conventional .224 bullets, and I am not understanding why some keep bringing them up. Also, despite what Tahr said- the 77gr TMK, and to a slightly lesser extent the heavy ELD-M and X bullets are different than conventional bullets when seen in large numbers.
A 55gr Sierra Gameking kills fine from a 223 usually, but in no way would I consider it to be an all around, all animal 0-500 or even 600 yard combo. More like a 300 yard one- as you stated. Yet without question in well over 200 whitetails, mule deer, and antelope; a couple dozen bear, moose, goats, and around 40 elk from less than 30 yards to 803 yards- the .224 calibers with fast twist and heavy match bullets is an all around, all animal killer. Keep their impact speeds above 1,800fps and they kill emphatically.


We log the time to incapacitation, distance traveled, and how many hits for each animal we kill. From .224 to .338 when using heavy for caliber tipped match bullets and VLD’s, the time to incapacitation is actually lowest with 6mm, then .224, then 6.5 and goes up as caliber does. Distance traveled is also lowest with 6mm and .224’s, followed closely by 6.5- though all are within 10 yards or so of each other. Amount of hits per animal ranges from 1-7, and is all over the map as per caliber- there has been no clear difference, save that shooters can shoot more rounds in the same time with less recoil and more shootable rifles.

I understand the arguments. I'll maybe work up a load. I shoot piles of ELD-Ms and am well familiar with them in other calibres hunting.

But to the question that was asked: If I was on an expensive hunt, would 223 be the calibre I'd reach for in my gun case?

My answer is still probably not. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I'll need to try myself.

I know a number of guides and I hear all sorts of cock ups from hunters coming for an animal. Typically problems are:

1) Too much gun.
2) Too much magnification.
3) Not enough practice.
4) Flubbing the shot due to nerves.
5) Taking too much time to take the shot - a particular problem with Americans that pull out their ballistic apps and wind meters while the animal moves off into the bush.

So if 223 makes you more accurate and you are working with a guide that will almost certainly try to get you within 300m of the animal it may work fine. But, if you are on a paid hunt you also have to pay the trophy fee even if the animal is wounded and you don't recover it. So if 223 is your ticket, then just be sure it can do the business.

Smaller calbres for hunting has been happening for a long time in NZ. Even the 6mm debate I find amusing. It's like Americans have never heard of the 243 until someone decided to call it 6mm and slap the name Creedmoor on the end of it.

 

[ElPollo]

I understand the arguments. I'll maybe work up a load. I shoot piles of ELD-Ms and am well familiar with them in other calibres hunting.

But to the question that was asked: If I was on an expensive hunt, would 223 be the calibre I'd reach for in my gun case?

My answer is still probably not. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I'll need to try myself.

I know a number of guides and I hear all sorts of cock ups from hunters coming for an animal. Typically problems are:

1) Too much gun.
2) Too much magnification.
3) Not enough practice.
4) Flubbing the shot due to nerves.
5) Taking too much time to take the shot - a particular problem with Americans that pull out their ballistic apps and wind meters while the animal moves off into the bush.

So if 223 makes you more accurate and you are working with a guide that will almost certainly try to get you within 300m of the animal it may work fine. But, if you are on a paid hunt you also have to pay the trophy fee even if the animal is wounded and you don't recover it. So if 223 is your ticket, then just be sure it can do the business.

Smaller calbres for hunting has been happening for a long time in NZ. Even the 6mm debate I find amusing. It's like Americans have never heard of the 243 until someone decided to call it 6mm and slap the name Creedmoor on the end of it.

Shouldn’t the answer to which gun you should hunt with be the gun that you shoot the best and have the most confidence in? If it makes a 4” hole through whatever you hit with it, who gives a shit what it’s called? It sounds like death to me.

 

[Southern Lights]

Shouldn’t the answer to which gun you should hunt with be the gun that you shoot the best and have the most confidence in? If it makes a 4” hole through whatever you hit with it, who gives a shit what it’s called? It sounds like death to me.

If that's the case, I'm definitely taking the 270 or 6.5x55 because I know they perform at range with far less wind deflection and drop. I also have no problem being accurate with them. So again, 223 isn't on the menu and it doesn't matter if it shoots 77gr or not. It simply does not match ballistically for ranges I may encounter on animals.

 

[TaperPin]

Remember when many many pages ago I said guns don't move anywhere close to 1/4" with bullet in the bore? And there's probably no gun that's shoulder fired that would achieve that?

Then you rambled for multiple pages.

let's not do that again.

And miss out on your spaceship ramblings? No way.