Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[ElPollo]

Here's one. Shot placement issue.

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

https://www.brownells.com/gun-parts/rifle-parts/rifle-receivers-parts/howa-barreled-mini-action-223rem-bl-standard-22-12x28-tc/ SNIPER10 gets you another 10% off. Tough to beat that deal.

rokslide.com

Not a total failure but less than optimal results, again with a placement issue.

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

So, certainly not a failure story, but more of a "I need to manage my expectations" story... This past weekend my daughter shot a medium sized mulie doe, impact MV around 2150. Got fragmentation and exit, entered 2-3" behind the crease of the shoulder and exited a couple inches in front of the...

rokslide.com

Neither of those are bullet failures. One was too far forward out of the vitals and one was slightly too far back. The bullet did what it was supposed to do, just in a less than optimal place.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Neither of those are bullet failures. One was too far forward out of the vitals and one was slightly too far back. The bullet did what it was supposed to do, just in a less than optimal place.

Agreed, he just said "failure to kill" and one of those met that criteria.

 

[Decker9]

I wouldn’t use a 223 personally. No qualms to the ones who would though on their own hunt.

I think depending on country, it may be tough getting a guided hunt with a .223. Of the outfits Iv worked for in BC, I can tell you what the reply would be.

 

[ElPollo]

Agreed, he just said "failure to kill" and one of those met that criteria.

I think we are on the same page, but I will say it for the rest of the crowd. Failure to put the bullet in the right place is a failure to kill that is unrelated to bullet performance. In the case of the animal you are assuming met his criteria, it’s always important to remember that animals run until they run out of oxygen or blood to carry it. If you leave one lung mostly functional, they are going to run further because it and the heart are still pushing oxygen and blood to the brain and body until it runs out of blood. Doing so can be related to bullet performance or placement. The deer running a couple hundred yards that you are referring to would seem to be a result of the latter not the former.

 

[Marbles]

Bro. That 308 recoil is clearly living rent free in your head. Or you are not tough enough to handle it. Or a combination of both. Man up!

Something had to replace my balls after I give them to my wife, might as well be recoil anxiety.

 

[solarshooter]

Yes, because so many animals survive with 4 inch holes through their body.





Nothing is 100%. Where did that statement come from?





Of course- what point are you trying to make?

I think my point is that just because there is a thread full of success pictures (which is often cited in these debates), 223 is not necessarily more capable of killing or less likely to have failures to kill than other calibers. It just shows that in those instances it works. But I think what a lot of "doubters" are saying is that it may have less tolerance to error in placement or suboptimal angles (through thicker bones etc). Yes there is evidence that in some instances some bullets have made it through. But there may be many instances where that did not happen, which we do not have pictures of.

I think it's important to remember that you are arguing somewhat against intuition/first principles which says "more is better". This is where the doubt and skepticism comes from - you are suggesting a major shift away from decades of conventional wisdom and experience.

And again, disclaimer, I was already personally swayed enough to spend a couple grand building a 6CM (6mm minimum allowed hunting caliber in WA) to test this for myself. But I understand where the doubt is coming from.

 

[Bluumoon]

Out of curiosity, how'd that work out in the end?

With me missing a bear. I have a thing for gingers and got excited.

I was slightly worried the guide might not see a few bears. He was professional enough to say he didn’t support it, but it was my choice. I offered to carry
the 7prc I brought, but he worked through it.

Pretty funny moment when he asked me why I had a bunch of .223 cartridges in my pack and I filled him in.

 

[Formidilosus]

Did the outfitter know 223 was your choice before arriving? I’d love to hear how the whole process played out.

Not to speak for Bluumoon, but the outfitter is good with it- certain guides may or may not be without experience.

Here in the outfitter’s wife shooting my 223-


They ordered a 223 and 6cm the next day.

 

[prm]

So what am I losing if I choose a 130 or 140 Berger out of a 6.5CM (or 260, 6.5x55…) over a 223 with a 77?

 

[Southern Lights]

Neither of those are bullet failures. One was too far forward out of the vitals and one was slightly too far back. The bullet did what it was supposed to do, just in a less than optimal place.

I shoot shoulders deliberately with the 270 and they don't go anywhere when hit. Sometimes aim slightly in front of the leg to hit the hilar zone and they drop like a sack of potatoes. High shoulder shot same. Doesn't matter if I hit both lungs or one, they don't shrug it off.

My last fallow I lost with a 223 was a quartering forward shot. I likely hit one lung as it was behind the front leg. Saw impact and it took off and wasn't recovered. This with a 55gr SP. Maybe a 77 TMK would have made a difference, but I doubt it. I should have shot the shoulder but reverted to old habits of shooting the crease. On culls I will say I shoot the 223 because it's cheaper, not because I think it kills better. The 270 definitely kills faster.

 

[Formidilosus]

I shoot shoulders deliberately with the 270 and they don't go anywhere when hit. Sometimes aim slightly in front of the leg to hit the hilar zone and they drop like a sack of potatoes. High shoulder shot same. Doesn't matter if I hit both lungs or one, they don't shrug it off.

What he referenced was a bear- a shoulder shot on a bear is too far forward and at best is barely clipping the front of the chest cavity.

My last fallow I lost with a 223 was a quartering forward shot. I likely hit one lung as it was behind the front leg. Saw impact and it took off and wasn't recovered. This with a 55gr SP. Maybe a 77 TMK would have made a difference, but I doubt it. I should have shot the shoulder but reverted to old habits of shooting the crease. On culls I will say I shoot the 223 because it's cheaper, not because I think it kills better. The 270 definitely kills faster.

There is a massive difference between 55gr SP’s regardless of make, and the 77gr TMK in wound channels. I don’t think a single person has said a 55gr SP makes an all around rifle for everything from a 223. 55gr SP’s variably kill, but they are in no way comparable to what is being used and discussed. Heavy for caliber tipped match bullets and ELD-X’s create wounds as large or larger than most .277 bullets.

 

[Southern Lights]

I hear you, but sourcing 77gr TMK in NZ is difficult now. I may try them. But also I should just state my experience is on culls we'll be out with guys shooting 223 and heavier calibres like 270 and I can see very clearly the animals go down harder/faster when hit with the 270 vs. 223. I say the same for using my 6.5x55. It definitely kills, but if I don't want them running I'd rather the 270.

 

[Formidilosus]

I hear you, but sourcing 77gr TMK in NZ is difficult now. I may try them.

73gr ELD-M’s do well, though not quite the same as TMK’s. If you have the mag room Hornady 75, 80, and 88gr ELD-M’s as well as the 80gr ELD-X all kill well.

But also I should just state my experience is on culls we'll be out with guys shooting 223 and heavier calibres like 270 and I can see very clearly the animals go down harder/faster when hit with the 270 vs. 223. I say the same for using my 6.5x55. It definitely kills, but if I don't want them running I'd rather the 270.

That’s a bullet thing. No animal can tell what diameter bullet is it hit with- a same/same 6.5m and .277 bullet hitting at the same impact speed is going to create an identical wound, and kill exactly the same.

 

[Southern Lights]

That's the rub. My 270 is sending bullets out at 3155fps at the muzzle vs. my 6.5 which is about 2700. .223 I have not chrono but maybe about 2900-3000 out of a 16" barrel. The muzzle speed difference between the 270 and 6.5 though is significant at hunting ranges and I think a large reason why the animals react so differently. The 270 just hits really hard vs. my other calibres.

 

[Castmaster]

If we actually want to be realistic to the question and hunting conditions I don’t think the price has anything to do with it I think a 22 cal or 24 cal would be a pretty great choice for Marco Polo and Mountain Nyala but I don’t think it would be ideal to the conditions they live in. Marco Polo is a very rugged hunt and it’s a good possibility that you could be taking a 700+yd shot on one across a canyon in very high gusting winds, I think something along the line of a 28 cal magnum with a super high bc bullet would be an ideal choice for the hunt. As for the Mountain Nyala they are very very skittish to begin with and they live in a very thick environment the hardest part would be getting eyes on one and good shot opportunity’s are few and far between, the chance of taking a less than ideal shot on one would be pretty high. As for the caliber I think a something along the lines of a 28 or 30 cal with a controlled expansion or copper bullet would be pretty good or even something like a 375H&H if you needed take an extremely steep quartering or even a “Texas heart shot ”.

 

[TaperPin]

A lightweight 308 is less than 1/16". You would need a extremely high recoiling slow velocity round. Something that probably doesn't exist in shoulder fired hunting rifles to achieve 1/4" of movement with the bullet in the bore.

Or absolutely terrible fundamentals. Like free recoiling a light weight 300wm might do it.

You may have 1/4 of movement, but I sure don't and most others don't either. I also dont shoot large caliber magnums and lie to myself and say I can shoot them just as good as smaller rounds. Shooting a road sign at 100 yards and hitting it with both calibers doesn't count.

It’s a conservation of center of mass problem - bullet and powder go one direction and rifle goes the other. The distance x mass of all the moving parts has to net to zero. I think if you check the math, it’s considerably more than what you were led to believe - don’t trust me - do the math yourself.

 

[z987k]

If we actually want to be realistic to the question and hunting conditions I don’t think the price has anything to do with it I think a 22 cal or 24 cal would be a pretty great choice for Marco Polo and Mountain Nyala but I don’t think it would be ideal to the conditions they live in. Marco Polo is a very rugged hunt and it’s a good possibility that you could be taking a 700+yd shot on one across a canyon in very high gusting winds, I think something along the line of a 28 cal magnum with a super high bc bullet would be an ideal choice for the hunt. As for the Mountain Nyala they are very very skittish to begin with and they live in a very thick environment the hardest part would be getting eyes on one and good shot opportunity’s are few and far between, the chance of taking a less than ideal shot on one would be pretty high. As for the caliber I think a something along the lines of a 28 or 30 cal with a controlled expansion or copper bullet would be pretty good or even something like a 375H&H if you needed take an extremely steep quartering or even a “Texas heart shot ”.

No, you just want to up the speed and make sure the bullet bc as well as construction is appropriate.
Something like a 26 nosler with a 140gr class bullet if long distances and high winds as it's significantly less recoil than a 28. Still quite a bit of recoil in a light gun though.
There's a really long kill over there I saw photos of recently with a 6.5 sherman max. 6PRC would be high on my list. The altitude helps a lot with drift and velocity loss.

I mean ultimately you plug the data into a balistic calculator and figure out if that cartridge will get it done. 700y at 8000-12000ft plus a 30mph direct crosswind? I'm still going for the least recoil that will get that done. But honestly, I'm not taking that shot. I'm getting closer and possibly going home empty handed, but it wouldn't matter if it was a 300prc, I'd also not be taking that shot.

 

[omicron1792]

No. Everything I have seen, and there a quite a few people on this board who have seen it with me with can say is- recoil effects shooting well outsized to what people believe.









That is base mechanical precision- not field on demand precision and accuracy.







Again no. When those WEZ calcs are ran be me, they are generally in the 1.5 MOA or less precision zone. That is not the same thing as actual field accuracy ability.

The reasons me miss in order:

1). We suck (put recoil, base ability, etc here).




2). Scope/rifle system lost zero
3). Never had a zero.
4). Had a less than optimum zero.


5). Wind.



At about that separation level. “We suck” is way more than any other factor.






The issue with the Kraft drill is it is extremely unstressful, and even the timed version does not stress the system as animals and field shooting do.

Quick question Form.

I have an AR with 16” barrel. I’m getting 2703 with black hills 77TMK. I don’t reload.

I use a blaser r8 and I’m going to get a 22 barrel for it (have lots of the large calibers already for my Africa hunting).

Would you just get a 223 barrel, or would you get a 22-250 or 22 creed to increase the velocity a bit.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

It’s a conservation of center of mass problem - bullet and powder go one direction and rifle goes the other. The distance x mass of all the moving parts has to net to zero. I think if you check the math, it’s considerably more than what you were led to believe - don’t trust me - do the math yourself.

Looks to me like it's considerably less than you've been led to believe.
Here's a super slow motion of the muzzle blast and I see zero movement until well after the bullet is gone.

 

[plebe]

Looks to me like it's considerably less than you've been led to believe.
Here's a super slow motion of the muzzle blast and I see zero movement until well after the bullet is gone.

This video shows how much a rifle moves in recoil before the bullet comes out - 338 Lapua Magnum, 300 grain Scenar from a Barrett MRAD. It's amazing... | By Bryan Litz BallisticsFacebook

This video shows how much a rifle moves in recoil before the bullet comes out - 338 Lapua Magnum, 300 grain Scenar from a Barrett MRAD. It's amazing...

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