Do I need more grains?

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

If it works for you man, have at it. There's a place for them for sure. I've certainly dropped deer with both types of bullets but would put my money on the larger wound channel every time for the time to death calculation.

I think it comes down to most folks put that larger wound channel into the lungs so they don't trash alot of meat which might not kill quite as fast as a bullet through the heart/arterial bundle that kills blood pressure really quick. I absolutely acknowledge a larger wound channel through the heart would result in a quick death too (and more margin of error on the shot), the meat loss associated isn't ideal though so pros/cons.

 

[SloppyJ]

I think it comes down to most folks put that larger wound channel into the lungs so they don't trash alot of meat which might not kill quite as fast as a bullet through the heart/arterial bundle that kills blood pressure really quick. I absolutely acknowledge a larger wound channel through the heart would result in a quick death too (and more margin of error on the shot), the meat loss associated isn't ideal though so pros/cons.

Refreshing that people can still have differing opinions and be civil. Props man.

It's definitely a faster expiration in my experience to take out circulatory system than lungs. I hunt in thick country so it's my preference to get them down as quickly as possible and having a solid blood trail is plan B.

I don't want this to sound bad but we get 15 deer tags for my family. If the difference in recovering a deer or not is hinging on the fact that some shoulder meat might get ruined, I'll take that every time to not lose the entire animal. I'd rather lose that than blow up half a backstrap with a high shoulder shot. I've seen too many get back up and run from a CNS disruption.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Refreshing that people can still have differing opinions and be civil. Props man.

It's definitely a faster expiration in my experience to take out circulatory system than lungs. I hunt in thick country so it's my preference to get them down as quickly as possible and having a solid blood trail is plan B.

I don't want this to sound bad but we get 15 deer tags for my family. If the difference in recovering a deer or not is hinging on the fact that some shoulder meat might get ruined, I'll take that every time to not lose the entire animal. I'd rather lose that than blow up half a backstrap with a high shoulder shot. I've seen too many get back up and run from a CNS disruption.

Yep that all makes sense and in thick country I'd likely shoot something a bit more violent. That thought process has already been through my head when I was bear hunting in scrub oak so I decided to try out the ELDMs on a deer this year for future reference.

I have had good luck over the years with monos killing quickly and very limited running (heart/arterial bundle). But I'm also often in more open country so it wouldn't matter too much (to a degree) if they did run a bit. I butcher all my own stuff and do prefer trimming up from a mono I can say after this deer with the ELDM but its not a night/day difference of preference.

 

[Johnny_Yemon11]

I appreciate all the input, good to hear the differing perspectives. I honestly wasn’t expecting this much input.

 

[SloppyJ]

I appreciate all the input, good to hear the differing perspectives. I honestly wasn’t expecting this much input.

You might not have known this but heavy for caliber match bullets are a hot topic around here.

 

[Johnny_Yemon11]

I didn’t previously. But I’m starting to see lots of posts now…

 

[35WhelenAI]

OP, back to an earlier post. You waited 30 minutes to look for the elk and you say fairly confidently it took 10 minutes to die? That is a contradiction in the sense how do you gauge the 10 minutes when you didn't look for 30 minutes? Can you elaborate or clarify?

I choose a large caliber/heavier bullet. 35 Whelen AI 200 Barnes TTSX @2940 fps mv. Out to 450 yards is meat in the freezer. No questions asked, nor is there anything "pathetic" about the internal damage.

Research, can you expand on what pathetic means in this case since the animal died in order to have a basis for the observation/opinion.

What I have observed from decades of comparing damage in the field, Barnes will tatter and chunk the heart and lungs into full dysfunction. Frangible bullets will liquefy them into full dysfunction. Heart or lungs in either scenario have no life preserving capabilities at that point.

TTSX for me (larger caliber) expands right now on mule deer broadside through the ribs, and have never been able to catch one in any deer or elk. I have recovered 2 Original X Bullets (.358 200X and 250X) from hard quartering shots through elk.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

1 1/2 year old whitetail buck had a hole through the heart that was too small for my pinky finger to fit through, Shot at 85 yards quartering away. Bullet exited, but the wound channel resembled a field point. 300 win mag, barnes 165 tsx. Zero blood, traveled 60 yards

Button buck, headshot from behind at 15 yards, bullet exited at about the inside edge of the left eye socket. Insufficient damage to the actual brain, so the deer ran for about 50 yards with the left eye dangling by the ocular nerve. Unable to really see, the deer ran into some sticks and somersaulted, breaking both front legs. Head was still up, deer was very alert and alive. Shot 2 from 10 yards into the neck, minimal damage, deer remained alert. Shot 3 entered through the ear hole and finally killed the poor thing. 300 win mag, 165 Barnes tsx.

Thus ended my 2 deer mono experience, I had seen enough.

 

[Johnny_Yemon11]

OP, back to an earlier post. You waited 30 minutes to look for the elk and you say fairly confidently it took 10 minutes to die? That is a contradiction in the sense how do you gauge the 10 minutes when you didn't look for 30 minutes? Can you elaborate or clarify?

It was in some regen, the viewing/shooting lanes were narrow from my shot location. I felt the shot was good but didn’t see impact, and I couldn’t tell if she was in fact injured right away. Post shot I saw her move through another lane, but didn’t appear to be limping. After 30 seconds she was located standing ~20-30 yards from her original location quartering away, with her front third not visible because of the regen. Was setting up/debating for a follow up, she took some steps and went out of view. But again didn’t recognize any limping. (This was where the most significant blood was found and appeared to start)

My hunting partner’s son that day said he saw her flinch on impact. My partner and I felt confident if she hadn’t took off with the rest of her group post shot she was probably pretty injured. Gave her the 30 minutes to make sure she was dead and didn’t get pushed around in the regen without being able to see her. Based on her expiring 20 feet from that last seen spot, and the amount of blood in her cavity I’d conservatively say she was dead in 10. Could’ve been 5, could’ve been 15, but I’d guess it was less than 10.

 

[JFK]

1 1/2 year old whitetail buck had a hole through the heart that was too small for my pinky finger to fit through, Shot at 85 yards quartering away. Bullet exited, but the wound channel resembled a field point. 300 win mag, barnes 165 tsx. Zero blood, traveled 60 yards

Button buck, headshot from behind at 15 yards, bullet exited at about the inside edge of the left eye socket. Insufficient damage to the actual brain, so the deer ran for about 50 yards with the left eye dangling by the ocular nerve. Unable to really see, the deer ran into some sticks and somersaulted, breaking both front legs. Head was still up, deer was very alert and alive. Shot 2 from 10 yards into the neck, minimal damage, deer remained alert. Shot 3 entered through the ear hole and finally killed the poor thing. 300 win mag, 165 Barnes tsx.

Thus ended my 2 deer mono experience, I had seen enough.

Definitely some weird stuff happening with both those deer. I believe what you wrote, but it just simply doesn’t align with anything I’ve seen or experienced. I’m at around 30 animals myself shot with monos, plus a good number of others I’ve been around for that have been drama free, all with smaller calibers, mostly 270win, some 25-06 and 243 as well. All at much further distances than you are talking about above (150-400 yards most shots with some longer) on pigs, deer, antelope and elk. I couldn’t care less what people shoot and honestly don’t get why this has become the hill that roksliders want to die on, it’s just difficult to reconcile how some people have such negative experiences and others have consistent success. Don’t take this as me trying to prove anything or convince you. I really don’t care and people should absolutely shoot what they confident with. The only part of this conversation that interests me is the big discrepancy in how some people can have such a poor experience with copper while others have used it for decades, kill truck loads of animals with it, and report that it works great. Sounds odd, right?

 

[ResearchinStuff]

I don't have an explanation, just observations.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Research, that first one is a bummer. We hunt long enough, we all will have the unexplained bullet performance.

On the second one, if you're aiming for the back of the head, 15 yds, and it runs away with an eyeball hanging out, you missed. Not a bullet issue in my opinion. I'm glad you were able to put the animal that was suffering from the shot choice out of its misery.

 

[SDHNTR]

OP, Barnes doesn’t market this fact well, but in a .30 cal, the fact is, you used the wrong bullet. Barnes made that 150 super hard, designed to be shot from .300 wm. It sucks at .308 and 06 velocities. If you want to use a Barnes, use the 168 ttsx. That bullet is actually the original LRX.

 

[Johnny_Yemon11]

OP, Barnes doesn’t market this fact well, but in a .30 cal, the fact is, you used the wrong bullet. Barnes made that 150 super hard, designed to be shot from .300 wm. It sucks at .308 and 06 velocities. If you want to use a Barnes, use the 168 ttsx. That bullet is actually the original LRX.

I appreciate the knowledge, I’ll have to dive deeper into it. I’ve read that 165’s were designed for the 300, and all others at .308/-06. But I’m still learning.

 

[Johnny_Yemon11]

Here are some examples from users who've tested stuff:
View attachment 794631
View attachment 794626

Found my bullet in a rear quarter while butchering today. Looks like it nearly opened to full expansion, in the <2500 fps range of the 2 charts(obviously different calibers). Talked with my hunting partner and he felt like the bullet did what it was supposed to. Maybe I’m over reacting, but I feel like I’ve learned a bunch from this thread and created some good conversation.

 

[TaperPin]

I used to shoot Barnes X bullets into cat litter - they mushroom nicely and it’s only slightly harder than meat. Making up reduced loads is easy enough and even back then when they first came out it was obvious low velocities resulted in much smaller expansion. It’s easier to simply use Accubonds and call it a day.