Deep caloric deficits

[The Harbor Master]

Edit: scroll to bottom for TLDR version if you dont want to read the babbling

First off, sorry for the long post. I have that sort of obsessive mind that won't stop until I have things just right. Ill try to include a lot of details that might be important so it might become lengthy.

BACKSTORY:

I'm 37 years old, 5'11". I've always been reasonably active and an on/off gym goer. In 2019 I prepped and did my first (and definitely last) bodybuilding show. I was at 173lbs, I dont remember body fat %. I wasn't as "cut" as I'd hoped, but definitely the best shape Ive ever been in. Long story short, the pendulum swung and I entered the world of "skinny fat." Made it up close to 210lbs.

Earlier this year I decided I was tired of being "skinny fat," eating donuts for breakfast, pizza for dinner, drinking a lot of alcohol. I didnt want to be the "fat dad." So I went back at it, stopped drinking, shifted my diet to a sort of modified carnivore/keto diet (meat, some vegetables, dairy, eggs). I went from 201lbs on January 6th to 175lbs on April 8th. I was getting pretty close to the physique I wanted. A lot of aches and pains gone, hiking and hunting would be easier.

In early June I went on a vacation and let loose, and had a hard time getting back into it when I came back. Fitness/diet was wishy washy and slowly weight came back. Again I found myself approaching "skinny fat," drinking a lot and just not being happy with myself. The pendulum swung again and on July 29th I decided to get back to it. I started at roughly 200lbs. As of today, 8/20 I'm down to 185lbs.

ROUTINE AND DIET:

I am not counting calories, or weighing food. Thats just not sustainable for me. I am keeping a rough count on protein in my head and make sure Im getting 0.75g-1g per lb of body weight. I have a fairly active job with a good amount of walking and some climbing, but once or twice a week it's mostly sitting. I go to the gym 3-4x/week (especially try to go on those "sitting days") and do resistance training and 10-15min LISS cardio (elliptical, inclined treadmill). Last detail, Ive been intermittent fasting. 16hr fast, 8hr eating window. Usually fast from 7pm-11am. All of these things are the exact same as earlier this when I went 201lb-175lbs in 3mo.

Now my question. This evening out of curiosity I checked the calories Ive eaten the last couple days. Both days are 1600 kcal - 1800 kcal. Im sure sometimes I eat a little more, but that's probably a safe average. My BMR is roughly 1800 kcal. If I burn somewhere around 1000kcal on a busy gym day, thats a 1000 kcal deficit. Isn't that... excessive? Crazy? When I run numbers on the weight loss in those time frames, it's a weight loss of about 0.28lbs/day and that translates to a 900-1000 kcal deficit. I have fine energy through the day. I dont feel super hungry (maybe a little towards the end of the fast), I sleep fine, my lifts are staying the same and sometimes going up. Part of me thinks, "why worry about it if I feel fine and I'm losing body fat?" But thats not what the goggles say...

MAJOR TL;DR:

I've seen that a significant calorie deficit can be detrimental. Should I worry about a 900 kcal deficit if weight loss is consistent, energy is fine, strength isn't being lost?

If you made it this far, thank you... sometimes it's cathartic to just type it out.

 

[LCguy]

I'd be extremely surprised if you burned 1000 calories at the gym. In fact, if be very surprised if you were burning more than 400 calories a gym session. With your height and weight and assuming average height, you could probably be losing a quarter pound a week at 2,100-2,200 calories a day if you're working out 4-5 days a week. All this to say, I think you can eat a bit more and still lose weight at a rate that's more sustainable and thus will help you avoid a major swing back the other way.

 

[The Harbor Master]

Appreciate it. And yeah, I didn't necessarily mean 1000cals burned at the gym, there's no way. I meant in a gym + 12hr active work day. But I'm just guessing.

Thanks for the input, Im thinking of adding a small 200-300cal meal per day and see if I continue losing.

 

[180ls1]

Appreciate it. And yeah, I didn't necessarily mean 1000cals burned at the gym, there's no way. I meant in a gym + 12hr active work day. But I'm just guessing.

Thanks for the input, Im thinking of adding a small 200-300cal meal per day and see if I continue losing.

I think that's a good idea, and/or a reefed day once a week where you are in a caloric surplus.

Being that you're only 3 weeks in, the "issues" are not really going to show up just yet.

Also keep in mind, you most definitely are losing muscle. You are not seeing it as strength loss because of neural adaptation improving the efficiency of said movements.

 

[The Harbor Master]

I think that's a good idea, and/or a reefed day once a week where you are in a caloric surplus.

Being that you're only 3 weeks in, the "issues" are not really going to show up just yet.

Also keep in mind, you most definitely are losing muscle. You are not seeing it as strength loss because of neural adaptation improving the efficiency of said movements.

Thanks, I thought about a re-feed day or 2. Thinking about the caloric average over a week instead of worrying about the day. Im either going to add a little more each day or maybe just make sure im in a good surplus once or twice a week.

I dont mind doing all this, but to be long term sustainable the appeal of carnivore is the simplicity. Maybe im overthinking it, as I tend to do with most things lol

 

[LCguy]

As someone who has also done bulk-cut cycles, I also think that the diet needs to be tailored specifically to you. Generally, even on a big cut, I can feel OK on a 1k deficit if I am getting enough fat to keep my hormones stable and enough carbs to keep my mind sharp and energy up. I could never do carnivore because if I am not eating enough carbs, I have so much mental fog that it is hard for me to focus on work, much less get a decent workout in. I think a lot of diet is pretty personal but my experience is that no carbs is no good beyond losing weight.

At the same time, I do not think huge deficits are sustainable for an extended amount of time. I lost 30 pounds recently and I cannot even begin to describe my diet fatigue and how much I was over it. I think adding a small meal and then seeing what your weight days over a month would be a good idea for a more sustainable diet.

 

[The Harbor Master]

As someone who has also done bulk-cut cycles, I also think that the diet needs to be tailored specifically to you. Generally, even on a big cut, I can feel OK on a 1k deficit if I am getting enough fat to keep my hormones stable and enough carbs to keep my mind sharp and energy up. I could never do carnivore because if I am not eating enough carbs, I have so much mental fog that it is hard for me to focus on work, much less get a decent workout in. I think a lot of diet is pretty personal but my experience is that no carbs is no good beyond losing weight.

At the same time, I do not think huge deficits are sustainable for an extended amount of time. I lost 30 pounds recently and I cannot even begin to describe my diet fatigue and how much I was over it. I think adding a small meal and then seeing what your weight days over a month would be a good idea for a more sustainable diet.

Thanks. Yeah good point to remember it can vary a lot person to person. So far no mental fog, feeling great. Same as last time. I dont plan to be zero carb forever, once I'm happy with the cut Id like to start including "healthy" carbs and try to build some more lean muscle over time. No more donuts and garbage, but things like fruit, Greek yogurt, honey, some small amounts of whole grain.

I'm in that weird headspace of not being old, but not getting any younger and wanting to get in the best shape I can, while I can. Plus, packing elk out at 210lbs is harder than packing elk out at 175lbs. Sustainability is going to be the key, because as I've already shared Im a big "all or nothing," pendulum swing, OCD overthink things, analysis paralysis kind of guy.

 

[rickyw]

I can easily burn over 1000 calories on a run. But, if I don’t overthink it, I don’t need to binge to make up for it, though with consistent heavy exercise I am more hungry and do eat more. Just go by feel. Stop eating when just satisfied, not full.

Sometimes we let our minds get in our way. Sounds like you don’t need as many calories as you may think you need.

 

[V2Pnutrition]

ROUTINE AND DIET:

I am not counting calories, or weighing food. Thats just not sustainable for me. I am keeping a rough count on protein in my head and make sure Im getting 0.75g-1g per lb of body weight. I have a fairly active job with a good amount of walking and some climbing, but once or twice a week it's mostly sitting. I go to the gym 3-4x/week (especially try to go on those "sitting days") and do resistance training and 10-15min LISS cardio (elliptical, inclined treadmill). Last detail, Ive been intermittent fasting. 16hr fast, 8hr eating window. Usually fast from 7pm-11am. All of these things are the exact same as earlier this when I went 201lb-175lbs in 3mo.

Now my question. This evening out of curiosity I checked the calories Ive eaten the last couple days. Both days are 1600 kcal - 1800 kcal. Im sure sometimes I eat a little more, but that's probably a safe average. My BMR is roughly 1800 kcal. If I burn somewhere around 1000kcal on a busy gym day, thats a 1000 kcal deficit. Isn't that... excessive? Crazy? When I run numbers on the weight loss in those time frames, it's a weight loss of about 0.28lbs/day and that translates to a 900-1000 kcal deficit. I have fine energy through the day. I dont feel super hungry (maybe a little towards the end of the fast), I sleep fine, my lifts are staying the same and sometimes going up. Part of me thinks, "why worry about it if I feel fine and I'm losing body fat?" But thats not what the goggles say...

MAJOR TL;DR:

I've seen that a significant calorie deficit can be detrimental. Should I worry about a 900 kcal deficit if weight loss is consistent, energy is fine, strength isn't being lost?

If you made it this far, thank you... sometimes it's cathartic to just type it out.

First: congrats on doing something about not being where you want to be. Cliche as it sounds, that is the hardest part.

Short answer to your question is this: There's no concern if your rate of loss matches what it was on your last attempt (201 to 175 in 12 week with a rate of 2.166lb/week). That's not too aggressive at all and will likely slow as you inch closer to the desired goal weight.

Second: You don't need a re-feed. The deficit is not that significant- especially if you're not expressing any physiological issues tied to truly deep deficits.

The greatest concern for a "deep deficit" would be that some of your weight loss is actually muscle loss. Remember, not all weight loss is fat loss.

But, you check all the boxes for it NOT being muscle: protein at a good rate (if not high), rate of loss isn't excessive, and a return to resistance training after some time away.

Keep up the great work and continue to contemplate the question is sounds like you're asking: "Can I keep doing this?" If you find your answer to any part of your current regimen to be "no", then consider reworking it. Don't quit it- just reframe it until you can answer yes.

Consistency and basics will get- and more importantly- keep you there.

 

[blkqi]

Most likely you are running a smaller deficit than you think.

Firstly, do not include scale weight lost in the first 7-14 days of a cut in your calculation of energy expenditure, as much of this weight is just glycogen/water.

Secondly, do not include active calories, as measured from a fitness tracker, directly in your energy expenditure calculation. The body can and does regain some of this lost energy through short-term adaptations to metabolism.

 

[The Harbor Master]

First: congrats on doing something about not being where you want to be. Cliche as it sounds, that is the hardest part.

Short answer to your question is this: There's no concern if your rate of loss matches what it was on your last attempt (201 to 175 in 12 week with a rate of 2.166lb/week). That's not too aggressive at all and will likely slow as you inch closer to the desired goal weight.

Second: You don't need a re-feed. The deficit is not that significant- especially if you're not expressing any physiological issues tied to truly deep deficits.

The greatest concern for a "deep deficit" would be that some of your weight loss is actually muscle loss. Remember, not all weight loss is fat loss.

But, you check all the boxes for it NOT being muscle: protein at a good rate (if not high), rate of loss isn't excessive, and a return to resistance training after some time away.

Keep up the great work and continue to contemplate the question is sounds like you're asking: "Can I keep doing this?" If you find your answer to any part of your current regimen to be "no", then consider reworking it. Don't quit it- just reframe it until you can answer yes.

Consistency and basics will get- and more importantly- keep you there.

Peobably a little bit of confirmation bias, but definitely stuff I needed to hear, thank you. Very helpful advice.

I dont discount anyone's input in here, I appreciate all of it. This is why Rokslide rules.

 

[TaperPin]

1,000 daily calorie deficit isn’t crazy for an active 200 lb dude currently eating 2,500 calories or more a day just to maintain a constant weight - 2 lbs a week of weight loss is well within the healthy range of everyone I’ve ever heard comment on it. Even little chubby girls at the wife’s all girl gym drop weight faster in their weight loss programs doing nothing more than strict clean eating with low carbs and getting the muscles activated. Changing how you eat has to be the long term goal or you just yo-yo up and down, up and down.

Muscle loss seems to be over stated for the most part. Carpenters who are thinning down would be noticeably weaker if muscle loss was significant and working side by side every day would show the slightest slowdown. They may be dragging ass a little, but in 30 years I’ve never noticed a decrease in muscle strength.

A number of wildland firefighters who start out the year a little thick around the middle loose fat about as fast as they gain muscle and their weight can be surprisingly consistent even with clothes falling off of them.