Daughters first deer with a bow!!! Great footage

[tntrker]

Even though I said I wouldn’t do it, it’s legal in a lot of places. And fawns become foragers very quickly. It’s entirely likely these were already fully nursed.

I still wouldn’t do it, but it’s not a death sentence for the fawns

Maybe not, but they were not foraging for the most part, just smelling what momma was eating and learning....from what little I saw..

 

[Justin Byers]

How many of you have gotten permission to hunt from a land owner based on how many tags you have? Or how many deer you plan to kill? I've gotten permission on multiple private lands that were over run with both whitetails or mule deer based on the fact we planned to kill 3, 5, or 10 deer. These land owners don't want you to kill fawns. They want the does depopulated. I got permission on a private property 2 years ago based on the fact we had 8 doe tags in the party (2 per person) and were told no fawns and don't pull the trigger unless we planned to kill 4 adult does minimum. We killed 5 does in about 3 minutes. When we called back to check out he said we were allowed to come back and hunt again and next time we could take 2 bucks if we killed 3 more does.

Some of these landowners don't want "hunters" they want killers. They want people who can put animals on the ground. If you do it their way they will reward you with additional permissions but if you don't they will either never allow you back or they end up having to call in the state, do "game management hunts" and kill deer from the end of hunting season to the 15th of February pressuri.g the deer during the time of year they are most fragile. The tags on these late hunts are for antlerless deer but you don't know if you are killing a big doe or a big buck who lost their horns already.

This young lady made an excellent shot on a mature animal and will have memories for a lifetime. Congratulations to her and may she enjoy spending time with you in the outdoors for the rest of your life.

Jay

Thank you Jay! You are exactly right! The Landowner on this particular place is getting close to calling the state in. Of course we don’t want that to happen, and have assured him that we will take out as many does as possible. Bucks are not the problem. Bucks are not the ones dropping two or three fawns each year.

Thank you again for your kind words and your good perspective.

 

[Justin Byers]

Maybe not, but they were not foraging for the most part, just smelling what momma was eating and learning....from what little I saw..

I observe these animals a lot, as I am at the property multiple times throughout the week. They are not nursing at this point and are eating almost exclusively alfalfa, which is part of the problem with the over population and the damage. I was actually surprised she even stopped to nibble on the trail as they were headed straight to the alfalfa. In the evening I watch the fawns literally run through the woods to get to the alfalfa.

 

[Justin Byers]

Wow....why would you not instruct a minor to not kill a doe WITH spotted fawns, that are probably still dependant on nursing? I see a video where two heartless hunters killed a doe and left two fawns to starve or be killed easily by a predatior. 3 deer killed in that video imo...not so great footage imo..

Lol….. yep Bambi sentiments for sure…. Come on man, you’re using the word “heartless hunters” on a hunting forum? You have to be kidding me right?

They aren’t dependent on nursing, and if they were, the season wouldn’t start when it does. You need to take this argument up with the fish and game and try to convince the college-educated biologist who studies this type of thing for a living that they’re wrong.

 

[Justin Byers]

My question to you is, why even post a video of something to a public forum if you’re going to then get upset when people provide an opinion that differs from yours?

The purpose of posting a video on a public form was not to garner opinions…. and I certainly wasn’t looking for a bunch of opinions on whether she should or should not have shot a doe with fawns on a forum such as this. Just looking to share the success and excitement of my 13 year old daughter who was able to shoot her first animal with a bow. But, as you have alluded, I should not have expected more.

 

[Justin Byers]

Don’t worry guys, I’m going to shoot about 3-4 myself this next couple weeks that have fawns with them, and I will think of you while I’m doing it! Lol……

You have to understand that every doe on this property has fawns. As to the question as to why wouldn’t I also shoot a fawn if it’s about population control? For one thing there’s very little meat on them, for two I’m not looking to shoot a bunch of button bucks. Part of good management is allowing the young bucks to grow and mature and become good breeding stock for the herd. So, obviously I’m not going to shoot the fawns, although I think there’s nothing ethically wrong with that if someone wants to.

 

[tntrker]

Don’t worry guys, I’m going to shoot about 3-4 myself this next couple weeks that have fawns with them, and I will think of you while I’m doing it! Lol……

You have to understand that every doe on this property has fawns. As to the question as to why wouldn’t I also shoot a fawn if it’s about population control? For one thing there’s very little meat on them, for two I’m not looking to shoot a bunch of button bucks. Part of good management is allowing the young bucks to grow and mature and become good breeding stock for the herd. So, obviously I’m not going to shoot the fawns, although I think there’s nothing ethically wrong with that if someone wants to.

"You wouldn't shoot fawns" but would shoot their food source and leave them defenseless with lil training on how to survive? Good luck, blast away, if it's brown i't down, give em all a dirt nap, Smoke em, let the air out of them all, whack em and stack em, give them all a ride on the deer cart..

 

[atmat]

Don’t worry guys, I’m going to shoot about 3-4 myself this next couple weeks that have fawns with them, and I will think of you while I’m doing it! Lol……

Again, you’re welcome to do whatever you’d like if it’s legal.

But an attitude like that may be why people are giving you grief.

 

[Justin Byers]

"You wouldn't shoot fawns" but would shoot their food source and leave them defenseless with lil training on how to survive? Good luck, blast away, if it's brown i't down, give em all a dirt nap, Smoke em, let the air out of them all, whack em and stack em, give them all a ride on the deer cart..

See above... It's not their food source. Sorry you can't seem to comprehend that. As for the training on how to survive, they are already extremely adept at that, not to mention being with 50 other deer each night in the alfalfa field is a continuing education. You're views are emotion based, not science based.

 

[Justin Byers]

Again, you’re welcome to do whatever you’d like if it’s legal.

But an attitude like that may be why people are giving you grief.

Sarcasm may be hard to read.... I don't think that's why peopled are giving me a hard time. More like internet keyboard warriors who have to comment on anything they don't like, regardless of the science or legality of it, but seeing as how the Bambi sentiments run strong with a few in this crowd, I'll quote Thumper who said": "If you can''t say something nice, don't say nothing at all"...

 

[atmat]

Sarcasm may be hard to read.... I don't think that's why peopled are giving me a hard time. More like internet keyboard warriors who have to comment on anything they don't like, regardless of the science or legality of it, but seeing as how the Bambi sentiments run strong with a few in this crowd, I'll quote Thumper who said": "If you can''t say something nice, don't say nothing at all"...

My dude you’re clueless. Be better.

 

[Justin Byers]

Sure thing boss. Thanks for the advice.

 

[philos]

Rokslide is (I like to think) the gathering place for ethical hunters. When we as a group have a problem with a hunting situation/scenario we speak out. This is self policing and I believe it is valuable to our community.

I would not allow a hunter to shoot that doe. I believe it is very important to impart hunting wisdom and ethics to young hunters to guide them toward good decision choices once they are fully immersed as outdoors-men & women. I would have them refrain from taking certain animals in certain situations and explain my reasons-which you may or may not agree with.

There are many scenarios that will play out later in life for young hunters and I believe it matters how we help form their approach to these future events. Example-a young hunter comes across a less than desirable (but fully legal) animal but this animal is injured and clearly not going to make it much longer. If the hunter harvest the injured animal and fills their tag they forego the opportunity for a "trophy" animal. This is an ethical dilemma where I would ask the hunter to take the injured animal. It is not an easy call but it builds character to guide future decisions and actions.

Kudos to you for getting your daughter afield. I would simply disagree with this harvest but if the deer is processed and consumed we have to live with it

Don't take offense to others that disagree here-it is much better for us as brothers & sisters to hash things out in our community as opposed to the general public. Trust me- we will have your back if a group of non-hunters viewed this and went into attack mode but we want to promote a higher morale ground overall for the hook & bullet crowd.

 

[BigE]

Congrats to you and your daughter on her hunt. This forum posting is also a learning experience.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Rokslide is (I like to think) the gathering place for ethical hunters. When we as a group have a problem with a hunting situation/scenario we speak out. This is self policing and I believe it is valuable to our community.

I would not allow a hunter to shoot that doe. I believe it is very important to impart hunting wisdom and ethics to young hunters to guide them toward good decision choices once they are fully immersed as outdoors-men & women. I would have them refrain from taking certain animals in certain situations and explain my reasons-which you may or may not agree with.

There are many scenarios that will play out later in life for young hunters and I believe it matters how we help form their approach to these future events. Example-a young hunter comes across a less than desirable (but fully legal) animal but this animal is injured and clearly not going to make it much longer. If the hunter harvest the injured animal and fills their tag they forego the opportunity for a "trophy" animal. This is an ethical dilemma where I would ask the hunter to take the injured animal. It is not an easy call but it builds character to guide future decisions and actions.

Kudos to you for getting your daughter afield. I would simply disagree with this harvest but if the deer is processed and consumed we have to live with it

Don't take offense to others that disagree here-it is much better for us as brothers & sisters to hash things out in our community as opposed to the general public. Trust me- we will have your back if a group of non-hunters viewed this and went into attack mode but we want to promote a higher morale ground overall for the hook & bullet crowd.

Very well said.
Thank you.

Randy

 

[Justin Byers]

Rokslide is (I like to think) the gathering place for ethical hunters. When we as a group have a problem with a hunting situation/scenario we speak out. This is self policing and I believe it is valuable to our community.

I would not allow a hunter to shoot that doe. I believe it is very important to impart hunting wisdom and ethics to young hunters to guide them toward good decision choices once they are fully immersed as outdoors-men & women. I would have them refrain from taking certain animals in certain situations and explain my reasons-which you may or may not agree with.

There are many scenarios that will play out later in life for young hunters and I believe it matters how we help form their approach to these future events. Example-a young hunter comes across a less than desirable (but fully legal) animal but this animal is injured and clearly not going to make it much longer. If the hunter harvest the injured animal and fills their tag they forego the opportunity for a "trophy" animal. This is an ethical dilemma where I would ask the hunter to take the injured animal. It is not an easy call but it builds character to guide future decisions and actions.

Kudos to you for getting your daughter afield. I would simply disagree with this harvest but if the deer is processed and consumed we have to live with it

Don't take offense to others that disagree here-it is much better for us as brothers & sisters to hash things out in our community as opposed to the general public. Trust me- we will have your back if a group of non-hunters viewed this and went into attack mode but we want to promote a higher morale ground overall for the hook & bullet crowd.

I appreciate your thoughts. I honestly do. You are respectful and thoughtful. However,

With regard to not allowing a hunter to shoot that doe, that is the point.... I was not asking for anyone's opinions on whether I should have allowed my daughter to shoot that doe. I wasn't asking whether you agree or disagree, There is nothing to discuss... It was a legal deer, during a legal season, with a variety of solid, game management reasons as to why I am more than willing to shoot a doe with fawns at this time of year on this particular property. There are many contributing factors to why one makes the decision they do in the field, and it is not my obligation to go through the multitude of reasons why I chose to allow (and encourage) my daughter to take that particular, very legal, deer. My reason for posting was not in an effort to have the ethics police hand me their decisions on what they would do, or why I was in the wrong. I have been in this game a very, very long time, and I have a thorough understanding of game management, ethics, and legality. While I understand, and agree with your point regarding teaching good values to young hunters, and ethical dilemmas, this, by far, does not fall under that category. I have already laid out clearly and concisely why I stand where I stand on this particular issue. I am not interested in re-stating it again. However, I will re-state that I was not expecting people on a hunting forum to make emotional, anthropomorphic statements about me and my 13 year old daughter being "heartless hunters". That is laughable to the point of absurd.

The idea of a higher morale ground is a subjective one to say the least. What you view as immoral I may view as moral. That is where the laws and regulations come into play. This case is about a young lady's first deer with a bow, with a legal tag, in a legal season, in an area so overrun with deer that the ranchers and farmers will drop 30 of them with a rifle during February due to the amount of damage they are causing. (and FWP doesn't bat an eye, and has actually encouraged them to do so at times!!!) We, as hunters, hold these animals in high regard, much in part due to the fact that they are the resource we love to pursue. (Also a moral dilemma to some, as we kill the very thing we love).... But... to a rancher or farmer that feeds his family, and to a greater degree the world at large, these animals are no more valuable than a gopher, and in many ways more destructive. We, as hunters, do not own the corner on these animals, and quite frankly neither does the state. The land they live on, the food they eat, are owned by the farmer and ranchers. Very often our perspective as hunters is just as much skewed as the non-hunting public's when held up to the lens of perspective and needs of the farmer/rancher.

While I respect your point on hashing things out amongst ourselves, that too is a fine line. Sure, there are scenarios that are good to have healthy debate over, but we also are our own worst enemy at times and play the part of a cannibal, eating our own. I make no apologies for being a killer, and training my children to be the same, much like a mother lioness teaching her cubs, and at times having to hold the zebra down while the cub chokes the life out of it. We are predators, and a part of nature. I honestly could care way less about a group of non-hunters attacking me than a group here on a hunting forum. I expect it from an uneducated, spineless, effeminate, disconnected-from-reality public that thinks meat comes from a grocery store, or worse yet, that one should not eat meat at all. However, I am disheartened and disappointed to see it from my fellow hunting community who should know better. As atman put it "be better"....

Your statement "I would simply disagree with this harvest, but if the deer is processed and consumed we have to live with it" speaks volumes. I don't care if you can "live with it". I wasn't asking if you could "live with it", I wasn't looking for an opinion, nor did my post warrant it. You are free to NOT shoot just as I, and my daughter, are free TO shoot. It is not an ethical or moral question, particularly when you understand times, seasons, deer behavior, and management practices specific to a particular area. I would venture most of you do not live in rural Montana, particularly Eastern Montana with way over objective deer numbers. I am very serious, if any of you stated your sentiments to pretty much any local rancher/farmer they would scoff and show you the door. You guys are just disconnected from reality and have made these animals your modern day idol.

Any of you can choose to not shoot a doe with fawns if you wish. That is your God given, American freedom-loving choice. I respect that, but ask the same of you. This is not a moral debate, anymore than a vegan trying to tell me I am immoral for eating meat.

 

[atmat]

I was not asking for anyone's opinions on whether I should have allowed my daughter to shoot that doe. I wasn't asking whether you agree or disagree, There is nothing to discuss

I wasn't looking for an opinion, nor did my post warrant it

What was the purpose of posting on a public forum if you don't want anyone giving you any opinions? Even "I like that" or "great video" is an opinion. Were you just wanting zero reactions or comments?

I expect it from an uneducated, spineless, effeminate, disconnected-from-reality public that thinks meat comes from a grocery store, or worse yet, that one should not eat meat at all. However, I am disheartened and disappointed to see it from my fellow hunting community who should know better.

You guys are just disconnected from reality and have made these animals your modern day idol.

So, generally, comments like these just make you look bad. You're super critical of people, including name calling -- all because some folks said "hey that's cool video but it's not something I would do." Seriously, think about how defense and combative you're being.

As atman put it "be better"

My username is atmat. And you can actually tag me if you add an @ symbol before it. Just for future reference

 

[Justin Byers]

@atmat.. Sure thing boss. Thanks for the advice.

 

[atmat]

@atmat.. Sure thing boss. Thanks for the advice.

Of course! Always happy to help a newbie

But seriously, if you didn’t want any opinions or dialogue, why would you post on a public forum? I’m genuinely interested.

 

[Justin Byers]

Of course! Always happy to help a newbie

But seriously, if you didn’t want any opinions or dialogue, why would you post on a public forum? I’m genuinely interested.

I am a long time poster on a different forum that has a designation for debate free thread. I don't know this site has that or not, but if it did (or does) I would have designated this particular post as debate free. I don't believe that a dad, who is proud off his daughter's first bowhunting accomplishment warrants negative opinions as to whether she should or should not have shot a doe with fawns, anymore than if she had shot a 1.5 yr old basket rack and was catching grief for shooting it before it matured. Honestly what you are doing is raining on a parade. I think it is unkind, unnecessary, and indicative of human behavior that just HAS to share your opinion, even if it is not a positive one or constructive to the current moment.

All that said, I won't change your mind on this issue and vice versa, so I am done discussing it with you. I am sure if we ran into each other in the mountains we would probably be friends and hit it right off, but this is the problem with the internet.... Folks say things and give opinions they would never give in a face to face interaction. I'm sure you're probably a decent guy, but we'll leave it at that.