Dall Judging Manual

[duchntr]

Ill drop this here, for anyone interested.


http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/h...ng_sheep_horns_under_full_curl_regulation.pdf

 

[Yellowknife]

Good to see F&G come out with a fairly definitive manual on how sheep are deemed legal. There has been plenty of debate about that over the years. I was truthfully unaware that the "Stick Method" was even an option in Alaska.

Ill drop this here, for anyone interested.


http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/h...ng_sheep_horns_under_full_curl_regulation.pdf

 

[Bambistew]

I was truthfully unaware that the "Stick Method" was even an option in Alaska.

I guess there was a bio up in Fairbanks or maybe Delta that was using it in years past?

The parallel tip/base method will be pretty difficult to do as described. I played around with the method last night on a skull. Remember the point on a circle tangent to a line is infinitely small...The angle of the straight edge can be manipulated significantly with a VERY minor change in placement on the horn tip. I think a better way would be to take a picture and draw lines on the picture to see if they're parallel. You can also do this method from the front as well.

The stick method is pretty straight forward, but again... equal amount of horn above and below the plane? Eyeball it or what? That won't stand up in court... I want to know how they will measure this distance. Calipers maybe? We're talking a corkscrew, using the eyeball, the perception at various distances is not the same as the actual measurement. Squeakers will be in trouble.

The "lamb tip" definition will cause more controversy than we currently have... This will be quite subjective considering the level of wear, length of growth, being "concave" or not. The concave portion can extend into the second year of growth. I can see the red tags getting printed now as troopers use the concave portion of the horn to define the lamb tip. My wife has a ram that is concaved almost to year 3.

Personally I would have rather them use the decreasing segment length to define the preceding length to define broomed. For instance, if the length between y2 and y3 is say 8", then the length between y1 and y2 should be at least 8". If its less then you have a broomed ram. Y2 and Y3 rings are usually pretty easy to see. Or maybe something more simple like... require broomed rams to be 8 years of age?

I'm not sure they're really solved any of the legal/enforcement issues on squeaker rams. While these methods are somewhat definitive, they are just as subjective as the current FC regulation. There will be instances where a judgment call will still have to be made because the "test" can't be repeated exactly the same over and over. Good luck in court, AST will continue to give warnings on squeaker rams because they won't be able to defend these methods any more than they could before.

I'm glad there is more information, but I don't think enforcement will be any easier. To play devils advocate here... One thing it has done is allowed rams that previously were not legal under full curl definition to "become" legal (more 6-8yo rams). We'll see more people taking a risk at shooting a squeaker thinking it will pass one of the various tests. IMO I think we may see fewer red tags, and more young rams being killed, further driving down the average age of rams harvested.

 

[Yellowknife]

I guess there was a bio up in Fairbanks or maybe Delta that was using it in years past?

The parallel tip/base method will be pretty difficult to do as described. I played around with the method last night on a skull. Remember the point on a circle tangent to a line is infinitely small...The angle of the straight edge can be manipulated significantly with a VERY minor change in placement on the horn tip. I think a better way would be to take a picture and draw lines on the picture to see if they're parallel. You can also do this method from the front as well.

It's way easier to see with an eyeball than to describe I suppose. Agree that trying to put a straight edge on it would leave lots of room for interpretation.

Not sure quite how I'd use the stick method in the field yet. Cross hairs might make a handy "stick", but only if it's looking right at me at an angle that l could judge 50% above and below the line?

I'm not too worried about the lamb tip definition. It will still be a judgement call at times, but usually it's not too hard to figure out, and the important thing is that I'm looking for a ram that's "broken" past that point, which is a fair amount of horn lost. Makes it easier for me anyway.

I've got a ram on the wall that is also concave past yr 2 and very worn, but it's still pretty obvious that one side is broken past the lamb tip and the other isn't.



The "long" side only has about 1.5" of lamb tip left and the bump is worn down pretty well... but you can easily see it in the hand.



Judging FC will always be tricky on marginal rams, but I for one am happy that at least all of the enforcement officers will at least be working from the same manual. I'm not overly concerned if they let a few iffy ones slide once in a while. I think overall this will help with by giving hunters something to study before going to the field.

 

[Bambistew]

The question is where exactly is the lamb tip? When pressed about lamb tip being absent = broomed. Where is the line exactly on the nub if its rubbed off, but still actually present? Good luck getting more than one person to draw the line in the exact same spot.

The whole reason for these clarifications is so troopers have a definitive definition of "broomed." They're no where closer than they were before for 100% clarity on all rams, and they will never get it.

Agree that it is a wonderful tool for all hunters for judging rams.

For all judging a phone scope is your friend, or just hold out for big rams.

 

[adventure907]

The question is where exactly is the lamb tip? When pressed about lamb tip being absent = broomed. Where is the line exactly on the nub if its rubbed off, but still actually present? Good luck getting more than one person to draw the line in the exact same spot.

The whole reason for these clarifications is so troopers have a definitive definition of "broomed." They're no where closer than they were before for 100% clarity on all rams, and they will never get it.

Agree that it is a wonderful tool for all hunters for judging rams.

For all judging a phone scope is your friend, or just hold out for big rams.

I think holding out for big rams, or one's that are obviously legal, is the best advice a new sheep hunter could be given. The prevalence of 6 and 7 year old rams being killed is demoralizing, let them grow a little older!!!

 

[wantj43]

The "stick method" has been around at least since the mid to late fifties when I started with the guiding profession. At that time 3/4 curl was the legal standard. Full-curl was the general standard many sheep hunters set for themselves when sheep hunting. Within some sectors of the guiding industry, at least in Alaska, full-curl was the goal for which most guides strived. The "stick method" was really the only standard used in Alaska to determine full-curl until W. Heimer and T. Smith published a paper in the mid-seventies that in part correctly pointed out that dall sheep horns growth pattern more closely approximate a helix.
The full-curl criteria for dall sheep horns , in part, required the tip of the horn pass through 360 degrees. This requirement can be met either by the helix or "stick" configuration. The confusing part, for some, is the variation in horn configurations that can meet the legal criteria.
Without question it takes some time and effort to understand the differences between using the different methods for determining "360", however, given the variations in the way sheep horns grow the different methods are allowing for greater options for harvesting mature rams.
Though I initially had reservations about using the absence of the lamb-tip to define "broken", those reservations are no longer of concern given what is known about the first 18 months of horn growth.
Joe Want

 

[adventure907]

Thank you for that info Joe. It is great to see you on this forum, and hoping you will be able to contribute more as these discussions progress.

 

[oenanthe]

Joe, it's great to see you posting here. I think this manual is an excellent effort on the part of ADFG, and I appreciate your input on it and the clarification you've provided here.

 

[wantj43]

Thank you.
During the past two years there has been a lot of work to develop material to define what is "legal" and to help hunters better be able to make that determination with confidence. One of the tools that hopefully will soon be available in the form of 3D models of are a couple sheep that can be maneuvered to any position. The models help with understanding different horn configurations (full curl plus 7/8s curl) when viewed from different angles.
Thanks again.
Joe Want

 

[jherald]

This is really good info for the public forum.