CPW screwing Residents yet again….

[realunlucky]

Short term it would put a ton of pressure on the low to mid point units. Long term is could help.

All this is assuming people don’t start getting points for family members. Why wouldn’t I have my Colorado friends and relatives put in and then pay for their tag every couple years. You could realistically have 2-4 points every year.

This is assuming you consider a point holder with 12 points and another with one point to have the same burden on the system.

Someone losing two or three years of points doesn't do anything to help overall health of a broken system.

Also since we can average in Utah I've done it a few times (mostly sharing with my kids). I shared with my grandfather with what turned out to be his last hunt so of course that was amazing experience well beyond what I could have done by myself (but I still don't support averaging as it's still away to short cut a system designed to reward those who wait longest)

I always thought my wife and I would share her points but... it takes a TON of points to share half and still have them benefit you. Of course utah draw dynamics at vastly different than Colorado where even a couple points will make a huge difference.

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[Overdrive]

Among other reasons, point averaging would create incentive to buy points for non-hunting family/friends, which would increase the total number of points in the system. Not everyone could afford to do that, but some hunters would willingly pay a few hundred bucks extra each year buying points for non-hunters to help themselves get tags in future years. How much that would actually affect point creep is anyone's guess, but such shenanigans do occur in states that allow point averaging.

The only thing I see wrong with your conspiracy theory is....You still need a hunter education card to apply. If Non-hunting family/friends aren't hunters then they more than likely don't have the required hunter education card or care to get one.

 

[Amos Moses]

The only thing I see wrong with your conspiracy theory is....You still need a hunter education card to apply. If Non-hunting family/friends aren't hunters then they more than likely don't have the required hunter education card or care to get one.

Hunter education is CO is done online, and then a few hours on a Sunday shooting a .22 and taking a test. Not a huge hurdle. I’m sure my wife could handle it and she is absolutely not the hunting type.

 

[cnelk]

Point Averaging could easily be implemented by having a 5 PP minimum average - similar to the Hybrid Draw.

That would basically give all successful applicants no less than a 5 year reset

 

[Mighty Mouse]

The only thing I see wrong with your conspiracy theory is....You still need a hunter education card to apply. If Non-hunting family/friends aren't hunters then they more than likely don't have the required hunter education card or care to get one.

I highly doubt that CPW is actually checking the validity of the hunter education number of every single applicant, especially non-residents. I'm not going to test this theory personally, but I would bet that you could select any state at random, type in a random number, and your application would still be accepted and a preference point awarded. Even if CPW actually does check hunter education credentials, obtaining a legitimate hunter education number is a pretty easy hurdle to jump.

 

[sacklunch]

CO seems to respect the NR hunters more than some other states.

It has less to do with respect and more to do with the staggering ammout of money they get for NR tags vs Res tags.

 

[dirtytough]

I’m just a dumb hose dragger. Can someone explain to me how averaging points in a party app would increase point creep? Seems like maybe short term it might but it would pull a lot of guys out of the point game too.

The simple explanation is instead of my points buying one tag. I could essentially buy multiple tags.

A couple real life examples. Last year my dad hunted Colorado deer. He had more than double the points needed for the GMU he hunted. If sharing was allowed his points would have bought two tags instead of one. So someone else would have missed out causing creep.

I have lots of antelope points in Wyoming. I don’t care about antelope hunting. I’ll probably share them with family. So instead of my points drawing one tag I’ll draw 4 tags.

 

[Overdrive]

Hunter education is CO is done online, and then a few hours on a Sunday shooting a .22 and taking a test. Not a huge hurdle. I’m sure my wife could handle it and she is absolutely not the hunting type.

Soooo your wife gets her hunter education, you've been building points a few years, let's say 5pp. She applies for a PP and now has 1 pp. Good Job now your average PP is less than what you started with. By the time you catch up someone else has already used the game better. Point sharing and averaging are not good in the long run.

 

[Overdrive]

I highly doubt that CPW is actually checking the validity of the hunter education number of every single applicant, especially non-residents. I'm not going to test this theory personally, but I would bet that you could select any state at random, type in a random number, and your application would still be accepted and a preference point awarded. Even if CPW actually does check hunter education credentials, obtaining a legitimate hunter education number is a pretty easy hurdle to jump.

Why don't you try it and let us know. Talk someone you know into applying without a hunter education card and see if it gets caught and what happens. I wonder if they can face fraud charges for lying? I'm curious, so please convince someone you personally know to do it and get back to us.

I had a NR friend that came out hunting and he couldn't find his hunter education card from his home state so he brought an old license. They wouldn't sell to him because he didn't have his card and wasn't verified in the system either. He actually got an apprentice license issued and had to hunt with me at all times.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Soooo your wife gets her hunter education, you've been building points a few years, let's say 5pp. She applies for a PP and now has 1 pp. Good Job now your average PP is less than what you started with. By the time you catch up someone else has already used the game better. Point sharing and averaging are not good in the long run.

In that case, you wouldn't average your 5 points with her 1. You would use your 5 on an individual application and save her point(s) for later to bring your average up after you get reset to 0.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Why don't you try it and let us know. Talk someone you know into applying without a hunter education card and see if it gets caught and what happens. I wonder if they can face fraud charges for lying? I'm curious, so please convince someone you personally know to do it and get back to us.

I had a NR friend that came out hunting and he couldn't find his hunter education card from his home state so he brought an old license. They wouldn't sell to him because he didn't have his card and wasn't verified in the system either. He actually got an apprentice license issued and had to hunt with me at all times.

I have no intention of trying to skirt the rules; I'm just pointing out a likely unintended consequence that point averaging would introduce.

CPW addressed this very possibility in the report linked in the OP and acknowledged that it would be a difficult loophole to close (see snippet below). Also, it could be done completely legally: obtain a hunter education certification, build up some points, apply as a group with lower pointholders, get the tag but don't hunt. This aspect of point averaging may or may not affect point creep very much, but if you think it wouldn't happen to some degree, you're kidding yourself.

 

[Overdrive]

I have no intention of trying to skirt the rules; I'm just pointing out a likely unintended consequence that point averaging would introduce.

CPW addressed this very possibility in the report linked in the OP and acknowledged that it would be a difficult loophole to close (see snippet below). Also, it could be done completely legally: obtain a hunter education certification, build up some points, apply as a group with lower pointholders, get the tag but don't hunt. This aspect of point averaging may or may not affect point creep very much, but if you think it wouldn't happen to some degree, you're kidding yourself.
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So that little quote right there shows me that CPW is aware of the problems with point averaging and will not allow or do so in the future.

As of right now it's not happening. And I don't see it in the future unless CPW goes that route, but like the quote you shared they are aware of it.

 

[OneShot]

I’m just a dumb hose dragger. Can someone explain to me how averaging points in a party app would increase point creep? Seems like maybe short term it might but it would pull a lot of guys out of the point game too.

The lower end units would see an increase in applications and points it would take to draw. My wife is sitting on a number of points. When our girls are older, she wants to use them. But, if point averaging came around, we would put in together for a lower tier unit and share the points since I burned mine last year.
Just like in Wyoming, there are ppl who buy points for family members or friends so they can average out, even if the other “hunter” doesn’t even plan on going.

 

[Bluumoon]

Only 100 less high demand tags to residents total across all units involved and 3000 more in all other units to residents. Seems pretty resident and non-res friendly to me (also seems that way to the 80+% of residents and 70+% of non-res that said they favored a 75/25 split).

It's called survey bias. CPW presented a number of undesirable options for residents. 75/25 was best worst option

 

[svivian]

It's called survey bias. CPW presented a number of undesirable options for residents. 75/25 was best worst option

^^^ this

 

[Rich M]

It has less to do with respect and more to do with the staggering amount of money they get for NR tags vs Res tags.

We respect people for various reasons. WY was gonna and possibly did hike the rates. CO doesn't seem to be doing that yet.

The lack of respect between hunters is why we're gonna lose the long game - too much infighting and jealousy. Us being stupid is gonna hurt our kids and grandkids.

 

[MallardSX2]

I am so confused by this thread. Didn't Colorado residents just score a major win? From where I sit, they sure as hell did.

 

[Overdrive]

I am so confused by this thread. Didn't Colorado residents just core a major win? From where I sit, they sure as hell did.

Some residents still play the victim card

 

[MallardSX2]

Some residents still play the victim card

Seriously. It’s tiring.

 

[Bearded Bowhunter]

It's called survey bias. CPW presented a number of undesirable options for residents. 75/25 was best worst option

So people overwhelmingly thought the 75/25 was better than the status quo (do nothing/current system) option, but you're claiming survey bias. Interesting.