Cow elk carcass claiming confusion & conflict

[CoMtnMike]

So I am primarily a lurker and don't post much, but my most recent hunt has me questioning a few things and trying to figure out what I could have done better so everyone involved walked away feeling better. Looking for feedback on how to handle a "whos cow is this" when there were multiple shooters situation. Trying to give enough information but not too much etc.

I am a late onset hunter in my mid 40's, this is my 5th season hunting in Colorado where I live. I have managed to get lucky and kill one or two big game animals a year (cow elk, mule deer, black bear, pronghorn) primarily with rifle but archery as well. I am not a badass like many on here, I have not killed anything more than 2.5 miles from a trailhead because I hunt alone and have some back issues and generally worry about how many trips it will take me to get the meat out. 2020 has been a rough year hunting wise for me so I was hunting a leftover 4th season cow tag trying to fill the freezer. The first 2 days were in a different area of the unit and unproductive, so I switched to a new trailhead I had only been to one day during my (unsuccessful) 2nd season deer hunt. The area is not unknown, has elk herds and the herds know where the private property refuges are. So with elk bunched up completely avoiding other hunters isn't a realistic possibility..

 

[CoMtnMike]

Friday In the AM I watched a field and saw 1 hunter walk by the far edge and spook deer toward me (he turns out to be the first-year hunter later). I found tracks here and there as I hiked around and then found a great ridge overlooking an obvious elk travel corridor in a corner of public bordered on 2 sides by private. I sat there from about noon on and some hunters I saw at a distance earlier in the afternoon came and joined me at my exact spot for the last hour. 2 guys helping 2 hunters; one their dad and the other the first-year hunter they took under their wing that morning as he was hiking where they hoped to see elk. I thought it odd they would come to my exact spot, but what can you do on public land? Everyone was friendly and considerate. We all wanted to be back in the AM and while I was nervous about 3 hunters on one ridge, I figured it was manageable…

Saturday however the guys from the night before showed up with 4 hunters and then 2 more they had told of the spot came and each group had 2 non hunters. And I think maybe 2 others at random showed up. Way too many people in orange carrying rifles for me. There were a few elk at the edge of range below us but with such a large group I bailed back to the other side of the ridge hoping some of the elk made it around the herd of hunters and came down that side. Nobody got a shot that morning, but I decided to bail on the area and not hike around further. That afternoon I looked at several other trailheads and choose one to try a different way around private. I didn’t run into hunters, but neither was there fresh elk sign. When I got back to the other trailhead where I was camped I talked to people coming out. The original group from Friday afternoon had gotten an elk. So At least they weren’t going back out on Sunday and that seemed to be the case for a couple other groups. It seemed only 2 other hunters were headed up to that ridge and one I had talked to a bit and figured would be a fine hunting partner and the other was the first year guy I had only briefly talked to but he was friendly enough. Both had even less experience than me.

Sunday morning it turns out there were 4 of us up there at first light which made me a bit uncomfortable. But shortly after setting up we had elk moving below us towards private and about 5 minutes until legal light (which we had communicated and agreed on). I started calling and stopped the herd trying to keep them in range until legal light. I was watching them and in addition to trying to stall them I was looking for a cow separated from the others (over 100 head - many too close together for a shot). Apparently, the guy I had spoken too most had to point out to the first-year hunter where the elk were that I was calling to and this guy dropped and almost immediately shot (it was legal light). And then the guy I hadn’t met shot. I was still calling and the herd was confused. My thoughts waffled between "maybe I should just pass because this could be a mess" or maybe "I should take a neck shot so that I would either miss or know which cow was “my” cow". But alas, a cow stopped broadside and I took the traditional chest shot and I saw her react to it. Then after resettling the rifle I saw a cow near that same spot just standing as the rest of the herd passed her. Assuming she was wounded I shot again and so did the guy I had never met before as he also saw her looking wounded. So, I had shot twice and both other hunters had shot 3 times. The other guy I had spoken to most had decided not to shoot at all (smart fellow). I didn’t have a good feeling about the situation has we hiked over. We found one cow right away and 2 blood trails. One blood trail was just drops every 3-5’ while the other was massive and with small droplet sprays every so often. Those trails went 265 yards up hill and over a fence into private.

So then the arguing began. While the herd had been moving right to left the dead cow was laying facing right. The first year hunter said he shot 3 times at a cow facing opposite all the others and grazing and so the dead cow was his; which makes no sense because the animals were very alert to our presence on the ridge above them and moving together not grazing. When we looked closer at the cow she had no entry wounds on her right side and rather an entry left and exit wound on the right; so per his story this couldn’t be his. He was quite animated, emotional and pissed that we were “stealing” his cow and it took all of us talking calmly to try and get him to see his story didn’t match the animal in front of us and he marched back up the hill to try and get cell signal to call CPW. Then the guy I had never met said the cow was his because he didn’t see the wounded cow react to my shot and so he must have killed her with his shot. He wasn’t interested in my first shot or his first 2 shots.. just the last shots. My argument was none of us could be certain, cows all look the same, the pattern of aspens on the hillside was fairly uniform so it could be any of ours. None of us should claim it until we tried to get the other 2 and see their wounds.

 

[CoMtnMike]

In the end I wasn’t willing to argue as much as the others and with a solid blood trail onto private I figured maybe it wasn’t worth it as there were just more hoops to go through to recover the other animals. The guy I never met before laid claim to the cow on public land. Unfortunately, I was wrong. After hiking and driving for cell coverage CPW couldn’t get access to this group of private properties and I couldn’t get landowners to answer the phone. CPW said supposedly the ranch hands were looking for the cows and would let CPW know if they were found. I hiked back in thinking that maybe they continued straight line 1000 yards and ended up back on public land and recoverable; although that would be an additional 1.5 hard miles from the point they jumped the fence to find out. But looking at the terrain and fences (and blood) and I figured it was probably impossible. I did however locate a tree down gully from the blood trail with a huge flock of crows/ravens in it and what looked like a possible cow underneath (there was also a large group feeding on the carcass that had been processed down). I hiked and drove back out to cell coverage to let CPW know where specifically the ranch hands should look, it was probably 1:30-2 at this point. I waited until CPW called back at about 5:15. The ranch hands hadn’t gotten back in touch. No cow to recover…

Lessons…?

-Still working through this in my head. Maybe I need to cede preferred position if other hunters show up to avoid multiple shooter scenarios. But this almost means no 4th season elk hunting because with animals bunched up near private the hunters bunch up too. I always run into hunters 4th season because we all figure out the same elk corridors… Although I run into fewer when farther out and Saturday had been a crazy record of the number of hunters I have ever encountered.

-300 yards may not be far enough distance from the private line. But without the dead cows to examine and to know actual shot placement that is hard to say. Maybe my cow dropped and the other 2 guys were bad shots… or maybe my shot was bad. With 3 shooters and 3 animals hit and only 1 recovered it is hard to say anything for sure.

-Ammo considerations- one CPW officer clearly doesn’t like solid copper bullets like I was shooting thinking they pencil through without enough expansion. But again, not knowing which one for certain I shot I can’t be sure that is the issue with the 265+ yard blood trails. Another officer felt that officer had bad experience with older copper bullets and that the new ones expand well… so not sure. They both agreed the copper is most likely to exit the elk vs lead.

-Controlling emotions in messy situations with other hunters is a critical skill; I am glad only one of us seriously lacked it

-Land owners are not obligated to let you trespass to recover an animal. Maybe they had previous bad experiences, or maybe they don’t care about a 600 lb rotting animal or just don’t like hunters. Who knows? But they don’t have to do anything if a wounded animal gets on their property.

-Keep everything in perspective - After talking to CPW at 5:15 Sunday the highway entrance ramp was all of a sudden closed for what must have been a bad accident on I-70. Some people were having a much worse day than me. All I had to do was drive the long way around with an empty cooler and knowledge of an elk going to waste, but I am home safe with family.



So any other ideas on how to handle a conflict in the field about who owns the carcass?

Would you always just abandon an area if other hunters show up?

 

[Rob5589]

Sounds like a CF. Could have whipped out your tag, notched it, and attached it to the elk with pics to back it up if you were sure it was yours.


-Land owners are not obligated to let you trespass to recover an animal. Maybe they had previous bad experiences, or maybe they don’t care about a 600 lb rotting animal or just don’t like hunters. Who knows? But they don’t have to do anything if a wounded animal gets on their property.

Maybe. Or they run out there, find it, toss it in a pick-up, and head for their barn.

 

[Bighorner]

That sucks man. Men will do some pretty dumb things for elk and women. I try to give people as much room as I can. It's just not worth the head ache.

 

[Idaho_Potato]

Maybe I missed it but what caliber are you shooting? If cow hunting is going to continue to be a thing, maybe try something that seems like overkill to get one down to avoid long tracking scenarios. 30 cal magnums or bigger, 300 win mag and 300 weatherby mag.

I did 2 cow hunts this year and put 2 down within 50 yards with a 7mm mag. One was a heart shot and one was a double lung. Both were near private on public, which seems to be a common scenario where I hunt. I'm even eyeballing larger calibers just for this reason. Cows are wise to private/public in most places.

 

[LongWayAround]

I would not hunt with some random dudes from the parking lot. Especially rifle. Three guys who don't know each other blazing into a herd sounds like a recipe for dumb shit to happen.

I also don't understand the above suggestion that you need a .300 something magnum to knock down a cow. I would disagree with the idea that you need a bigger gun.

Also, depending what you all were shooting, maybe if you all cut the one up that you did have a bullet would have been recovered and you could have determined the shooter. You mentioned shooting solid copper, I don't have any experience with those but a buddy of mine shot a doe muley with a .308 and gmx copper solids. He said he hit her three times and each one penciled through at about 300yd.

It sounds like you did as well as you could have. But maybe it would be possible, if you knew others were onto your ridge or whatever, to intercept the elk somewhere else along their travel line. Or find a different group to hunt.

 

[mtwarden]

My thoughts waffled between "maybe I should just pass because this could be a mess"


with 24 years experience as a game warden, I can tell you you're situation is not that unique- it happens every year and usually doesn't end well

all I can advise is to listen to your Spidey senses

 

[CoMtnMike]

I was was shooting 30-06, 165 grain Federal Trophy cooper. Seems it should be enough gun.

I certainly would have preferred to be alone, but once others show up do you just abandon where you are sure elk will come through?

I had thought about taking the animal apart, finding a copper bullet stuck in the edge of the hide would be perfect evidence (others were shooting lead) but with what looked like an exit wound it seemed the evidence was separated from the carcass...

So I guess don't shoot / give up your position is the best choice followed maybe be the neck shot to distinguish your animal...

 

[gbflyer]

That’s a tough spot to be in. Welcome to CO and public land.

Had a feller try to argue about a dead bull once. Claimed he had already put one in it. He was getting ready to throw down. Told him to put his tag on it then, sure wasn’t gonna swing over a dead elk. His buddy came along and told him to back off. When he lost his backup he lost his courage.

Another time shared a ridge with another guy. My buddies son had a cow tag as did he. Random dude was very helpful and helped spot making sure the boy got the first shot. Both ended up successful.

 

[Rob5589]

My thoughts waffled between "maybe I should just pass because this could be a mess"


with 24 years experience as a game warden, I can tell you you're situation is not that unique- it happens every year and usually doesn't end well

all I can advise is to listen to your Spidey senses

Curious as to how you would have handled the situation had you been involved. What is the usual recourse?

 

[87TT]

I would have just left before the shooting started. If that is the only place to hunt, buy a side of grass fed beef. Probably cheaper anyway.

 

[mtwarden]

Curious as to how you would have handled the situation had you been involved. What is the usual recourse?

From a hunter's standpoint, I would have passed altogether- have seen too many situations like that and far too often, they turn sour
From a game warden point, I'd do everything I could to get the landowner to give us a chance to retrieve the elk. I had 100% success getting landowners to let the hunter on, if I was to accompany them. Obviously I'd insure that the elk was indeed shot on public and not deeded, that would steer me in a completely different direction if it wasn't.

 

[CoMtnMike]

I will say the CPW officers were all great to work with, unfortunately they do not have that same 100% success rate and apparently this land owner is a particular issue... kind of a "gated community" as much as a "ranch"... And we had a very obvious blood trail onto the property, but unfortunately it never got to the point of validating that...
I think I have to take careful thought about the neck shot if something similar could happen in the future...

 

[bsnedeker]

Man, this sounds like a recipe for a bad outcome: End of season + newish hunter's clustered together shooting at a herd. I would have passed once the shooting started. If a random cow stuck around within my effective range once the dust settled I would probably have taken that shot, but adding to the chaos when bullets are flying doesn't sound like a great idea.

That said, I very much understand how that would be hard to do in the moment so certainly no judgement. Sounds like you did the best you could do in a bad situation.

 

[Ucsdryder]

#1. Find a different place to hunt. I don’t care if there were 1000 elk humping your leg, there is ZERO chance I’m hunting there. ZERO!!!! I hunted 4th season and heard a shot about 1000 yards away and I was pissed I was so close to someone.

#2. You said there were no holes on the other side. Obvious answer would be an autopsy. Assuming the 2 of you were shooting different calibers and the billet didn’t exit you could have quickly figured out who killed it.

#3. Why didn’t you guys just split it? Butcher and carry out together. Figure both of you could have shot it and take some meat.

Maybe it’s a coincidence or maybe I’m just a whiny little bitch but I’ve seen more issues with new hunters in the last couple years, everytime I hear “this is my first year hunting...” I just roll my eyes.

 

[FLAK]

Yeah, I'd hunt somewhere else even if there's less game.
Not gonna put myself in that situation.
I've even turned around and came home before.

 

[Tod osier]

Just to share a personal story, I had a guy try to claim the first buck I ever shot when I was but a kid. I shot the deer calmly strolling by me at nearly point plank range, broke both shoulders and it never left my sight. The guy came over and pointed at the hole and said "yep, that is just where I hit it". Unlikely I was leaving without that deer and the guy knew it and backed off eventually.

The other scenario with your situation is what if those guys shot into the herd and dropped more animals than you all had tags for? - you could have been in for a ticket. I'd avoid that situation or avoid shooting unless I had a unique situation where I could have monopolized one animal.

 

[Laramie]

Doesn't help your situation now but I think it should be illegal to knowingly hunt with a firearm with so many yards of another without their permission. Hunter harassment is illegal and this is definitely harassment, whether intended or not. That said, in you shoes, I would have put distance and terrain between you and the other guys to avoid a possible problem- likely after giving them a piece of my mind. I would have also given a call to the local warden to report harassment and unsafe hunting activity. Even if no citations are issued, I would make sure it was an unpleasant experience.

 

[CoMtnMike]

"#3. Why didn’t you guys just split it? Butcher and carry out together. Figure both of you could have shot it and take some meat."

This did come up and I cant say for certain how it got discarded. But part of the issue was we thought the other 2 would be recoverable...

"I’ve seen more issues with new hunters in the last couple years, everytime I hear “this is my first year hunting...” I just roll my eyes."

Well I would hope to avoid this. As I know from 5 years ago picking up hunting is a big complex challenge to work through. I dont think it should just be an inherited right from those whose parents hunt... I'd suggest that if you see issues maybe offering some advice would reduce the issues you see. The hunters I met Friday had taken 2 newbies under their wing which I think is commendable.. but they had filled their tags and gone home by Sunday.