Copper vs Bonded vs Cup and Core

[rootacres]

Hey All,

Current rifle setup for reference:
7mm WSM, 168gr Berger Classic Hunter at 2850, max intended range of 600 yds

So I was hoping to get some dialogue from people with more experience than me on this. I watched two elk go down to 300 win mags in the last week. Both were shooting very different bullets. There was a 250 yard shot with a 180gr TTSX, it performed as designed/expected (see below). There was also a 150 yard shot with a 185gr Berger Hybrid Hunter, the bullet basically exploded a couple inches in, so maybe that is expected. I shot my bull at 325yds with the rifle above, the bullet is pictured below.

So. . . What does everyone like and why? Is greater weight retention desirable, is having almost the entirety of the bullet dispersed better, or somewhere in between? I feel like I could make a case either way. Curious to what your opinions are.

180gr TTSX


168gr Berger Classic Hunter

 

[brsnow]

I use copper, no desire to feed my kids lead.

 

[Silentstalker]

I think you almost have to tailor you bullet to the type of shooting you’re doing. Are you hunting close quarters animals or long distance?

Either way I tend to lean towards bonded bullets. My favorite is the Nosler Partition as it kind of covers all angles and does it well.

 

[HiMtnHntr]

I believe a bullet that creates a large wound channel and expends most it's energy inside the animal is a smart choice with elk.

 

[Tumbleweed]

I think you almost have to tailor you bullet to the type of shooting you’re doing. Are you hunting close quarters animals or long distance?

Either way I tend to lean towards bonded bullets. My favorite is the Nosler Partition as it kind of covers all angles and does it well.

Exactly. But we have to get specific about the distances one is using them at. Hard Barnes bullets, Nosler Partitions among other bonded bullets are fine generally inside 500-600 yards. Farther out, one should start looking at cup and core bullets designed to fragment as the previous mentioned bullets start losing their ability to expand. There are some fragmenting bullets that strike an excellent balance between close range and long range such as the Berger 215 and 230.


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[gelton]

The age-old question that I don't think any bullet maker has been able to solve and if they could they would make a fortune.

For the last several years I have shot Berger hybrids and nothing that I have shot with them has gone more than 30 yards (mostly whitetail). However, seeing how they respond, especially at close distance, I am a bit worried about shooting large size game like elk on a quartering towards shot at 80 yards. They are just so explosive that I worry about catching anything close to the shoulder, not just for the meat loss but mainly the loss of penetration.

So I have switched to Nosler Accubond simply because in the area I hunt elk in, an 80-yard shot is way more likely than an 800-yard shot. And with a bonded bullet I am not worried about taking a quartering to shot at 80 yards on an elk with a 300 WM.

However, if the tables were turned and an 800-yard shot presented itself with perfect conditions, then I am going to wish I had the 215 grain Berger Hybrids.

An acquaintance of mine has an itch to start an ammunition company and leans on me from time to time for advice...I tend to steer him away from production ammo and towards bullets. Not only is it a lower barrier to entry, but if you could solve the age-old problem of high-velocity close shots that demand penetration through bone AND have a bullet that expands reliably at lower velocities (despite what many of these manufacturers claim I don't think one exists) you could make a mint. IMO - it would have to be a total redesign perhaps forgetting about lead and copper altogether and finding some other element that has a similar denseness to lead but slightly softer than copper. Maybe Unubtanium, who knows.

 

[Silentstalker]

I agreed with what you guys are saying. I have seen Berger’s perform very poorly under 100 yards which where I hunt is a typical shot on elk. That’s why I shoot partitions. For my style of hunting it’s a great middle of the ground bullet and my max self imposed distance is 600 yards on elk.

You could make a fortune if you could develop a bullet to cover it all!

 

[AkMtnRunner]

I like the TTSX's as long as the velocity hasn't dropped too much, which is fine as I don't have much business shooting beyond 400 yards. If/when I do, I'll seriously look into the fragmenting copper bullets like Hammer Hunters.

 

[Wapiti1]

Federal's TLR is probably the best design out there if you want a mushroom and penetration. There is really nothing to fail with that design and you get a decent BC. Cutting Edge's Lazer is another pretty fool proof design.

Jeremy

 

[gelton]

Federal's TLR is probably the best design out there if you want a mushroom and penetration. There is really nothing to fail with that design and you get a decent BC. Cutting Edge's Lazer is another pretty fool proof design.

Jeremy

I do want to test some but they replaced the TLR with Terminal Ascent and according to the marketing on their website these pics do not impress me much...Berger Hybrid would give you a better BC and better performance at long range...kind of goes to show you that there is still much to be desired for a do it all bullet at all ranges...its beyond me that they would even use this image as promotional material.

 

[hodgeman]

I've used Accubonds pretty extensively for 15 years and have taken critters up to moose from 25 to 450 yards. Everything went down, many of them spectacularly so. I've rarely recovered a bullet, but when I have they look like an advertisement- 65% retention and a big old mushroom.

I've got no reason to experiment and a lot of reasons not to.

 

[WCB]

I do want to test some but they replaced the TLR with Terminal Ascent and according to the marketing on their website these pics do not impress me much...Berger Hybrid would give you a better BC and better performance at long range...kind of goes to show you that there is still much to be desired for a do it all bullet at all ranges...its beyond me that they would even use this image as promotional material.

View attachment 225270

The Ascent is the exact same bullet just with another groove in the shank...zero difference otherwise. The picture shown is at the long end range of the advertise expansion range depending on caliber around 1,000-1200 yards.

 

[Wapiti1]

I do want to test some but they replaced the TLR with Terminal Ascent and according to the marketing on their website these pics do not impress me much...Berger Hybrid would give you a better BC and better performance at long range...kind of goes to show you that there is still much to be desired for a do it all bullet at all ranges...its beyond me that they would even use this image as promotional material.

View attachment 225270

You're right, I forgot they changed it up. I've never looked at their promotional stuff. Of the currently available bullets, I still think it is one of the better designs. Not perfect, for sure, but a good option. Based on the OP's questions, it fits.

Jeremy

 

[rootacres]

I like the TTSX's as long as the velocity hasn't dropped too much, which is fine as I don't have much business shooting beyond 400 yards. If/when I do, I'll seriously look into the fragmenting copper bullets like Hammer Hunters.

What velocity / energy would you consider too low? My rifle is a 7mm WSM and my current setup would put me around 1950 fps / 1215 ft.lb with a 145gr LRX at 600 yds. That would be for deer.

 

[Tumbleweed]

What velocity / energy would you consider too low? My rifle is a 7mm WSM and my current setup would put me around 1950 fps / 1215 ft.lb with a 145gr LRX at 600 yds. That would be for deer.

Energy is not really the most important number to look at, impact velocity is. If the bullet doesn't open or open well, energy means nothing if the bullet is just going to pass through. Check the bullet manufacturer's low velocity threshold for expansion


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[Desk Jockey]

I had been a copper fan pre-COVID. Last year I took my rifle deer with a Barnes 6.5 creed. These days, I think you gotta take what you can get.

setting aside wildlife and environmental impacts, I don’t want to do anything that is going to add to my own levels of lead consumption. To each there own, but for me, personally, I have seen too many xrays of game carcasses to think it is not an issue.

 

[tdot]

I have switched all my hunting rifles to Hammer copper bullets. They are different enough from Barnes copper bullets, that I wouldn't put them in the same category. They really do work for any type of shot down to their 1800fps minimum velocity. I've shot a 6x6 elk at 15 yards in the shoulder and a bear in the lungs at 550+ yards, plus a number of other bear and mule deer. All with equally consistent results. 1800fps is reached around 750-900 yards in my guns so I haven't personally tested the absolute limit for these bullets but I also havent seen any reports of failure at those distances.

I've also had good success with Berger and Accubond bullets, and also failures with each.

I think more important then the bullet choice, is understanding the limitations of each bullet design and then playing within those limitations. I've just personally found that the copper bullets come with the lowest number of limitations.

 

[brsnow]

What velocity / energy would you consider too low? My rifle is a 7mm WSM and my current setup would put me around 1950 fps / 1215 ft.lb with a 145gr LRX at 600 yds. That would be for deer.

The 7mm LRX open up at a minimum of around 1400-1500, Barnes could confirm. I try to keep above 2000, but LRX give you more margin of error.

 

[2five7]

I've seen Bull Elk shot with every type of bullet you can imagine, we kill about 30 Bulls per year on the property I guide on. That said, I shoot Bergers out of almost every rifle I own. If they didn't exist, Accubonds would be my second choice.

 

[rootacres]

I've seen Bull Elk shot with every type of bullet you can imagine, we kill about 30 Bulls per year on the property I guide on. That said, I shoot Bergers out of almost every rifle I own. If they didn't exist, Accubonds would be my second choice.

What caliber & bullet weight do you prefer?