Copper fouling question

[tstowater]

I didn't want to hijack another thread, so I will pose the question here: What is copper fouling and why do we want to remove it? My simple mind tells me that we get "fouling" because the barrel isn't perfectly smooth and the "fouling" is the copper left in the barrel after being shot. If I remove the fouling and don't do anything else to the barrel, the "fouling" will be rebuilt over time and I am going to continue to have to remove the "fouling" if I don't want any copper residue in the barrel. If barrel life or accuracy is not being impaired, why do I care about copper fouling?? I must be missing something.

 

[Travis Bertrand]

Think of it as plaque build up on teeth. It builds up over time and hampers accuracy. There is friction between your bullet and bore, the more copper build up, the more friction.
You should run a solvent like sweets 7.62 as maintenance to your bore.

 

[Matt Cashell]

copper fouling is the depositing of copper or gilding metal from the projectile along the lands and grooves of the barrel. Powder fouling can compound the problem of copper fouling. Some barrels collect more fouling than others.

Most rifles shoot well with some copper and/or powder fouling. Some rifles need some fouling to shoot their best. Copper and/or powder fouling can build up to levels that affect accuracy, however, and so the fouling must occasionally be cleaned from the barrel.

As Dr.H. pointed out solvents such as Sweets, or Butch's, etc. can remove copper fouling with the aid of a brush. Personally, though, I just let Wipe-Out foam sit in the barrel overnight and push the dissolved copper and powder fouling out in the morning with a tight jag and a patch (I like Butch's patches). Since I switched to Wipe-Out, I don't even use cleaning brushes anymore. It is what works for me.

 

[Tdiesel]

Dang bitterroot bulls suggested my exact method and over a couple years the barrels I swear are slicker and slicker no proof just my mind I guess but my dad thought the same thing

 

[HellsCanyon]

Any rifle I shoot anymore has a premium barrel on it and this will make a difference in how easy they "foul" and how easy they clean. I have moved 100% away from brushes of any kind. Talking with the guys at Rock Creek they're cut rifled barrels don't actually reach peak accuracy until 60+ rounds are down to tube and they machining marks are filled in and smoothed out. They say that their button rifled barrels actually shoot better off a fresh chamber.
Because I do a lot of high volume shooting (some competitions are 100+ rounds in a single day) my rifles need to shoot consistent, and do it with a fouled barrel. There's a guy shooting with us that has over 1100 rounds through his 308 without cleaning for copper fouling and it's still Sub MOA all day long.

I've used both Sweets and Butches copper solvent + brushes in the past with decent results. But still noticed that my guns took another 10-15 rounds to really settle in consistently. I just this week started using Froglube CLP on a 300 Norma with patches to clean out my barrel for powder fouling and I hope to find that it's back shooting very consistent following a cleaning. The reason for trying this method is there's a a lot of powder going down the barrel (89 grains) and I'm only 30 rounds into the new barrel (copper shouldn't be an issue at this point). I'll likely only clean for powder fouling with this rifle every 30-45 rounds then at the 150-175 round count mark I'll hit it with some copper solvent and see how she reacts.

I'll agree with Matt that Wipe-Out works GREAT, but for me it works entirely TOO WELL! The one time I did use Wipe-Out, it took a solid 30 rounds for my gun to start grouping and shooting consistently again.

When we built my first "custom rifle" (280 ackley) I was cleaning every 100-125 rounds using a nylon brush and Butches copper solvent. I would patch it with copper solvent and let sit for 15 minutes, 3-5 brush strokes, then patch out clean. One time I did a little experiment and after the barrel had patched out clean, I repeated the entire cleaning process and it took 4-5 cycles of this for me to really feel confident that I'd removed all the copper. Every time I'd hit it with the brush it would loosen up a lot of copper and 3-5 dirty patches would follow. After deeming it "clean", for the next 25-30 rounds the rifle went from being a consistent .25MOA shooter to .35-.5 MOA (similar to when I used Wipe-Out). The biggest problem was it often times would shift my zero a click in one direction or another (.36") and my cold bores were not as consistent. I've gotten the best cold bore consistency on fouled barrels (15+ rounds minimum depending on caliber). For the past year I've just been using patches and butches Copper Solvent and the rifle has gotten back to that 1/4 MOA every time following cleaning. As always YMMV, a lot of this depends on the type of barrel you're shooting, bullet metallurgical properties, powder burn properties...etc

Mike

 

[Vitals]

I shoot an old Ruger M77 in .270 and still haven't figured out how often I need to clean the barrel of copper fouling. It seems to shoot around 20-30 rounds with no lost accuracy. But then again, I shoot hand loads sometimes and it will shoot even more. I'm at a loss since I was given the rifle from my uncle who was given it by my grandfather. I'm not sure how well or what regiment it was always cleaned with

 

[tstowater]

I'm glad HC said what he did. I have frankly dumped anywhere from 500 to 2500 rounds or more down a 6mm Rem, 22-250, 204, 17Rem and others and not used a copper remover in any. My father in law shoots a 223 in a Cooper and shot 4000+ rounds and not cleaned the bore for a copper fouling issue. None of these guns are experiencing accuracy issues, in fact, I will put the Cooper up to about any gun out there for accuracy across the board with any kind of ammo (that gun is incredibly unselective for ammo) We may periodically run an oiled patch for powder residue, but that is it. These are all handloads. Frankly, I don't even want to clean my 300WSM because of the same things that HC stated. I don't want to just fire 10+ rounds in my 300 just to get it to settle in. What gives? I'm shooting all factory barrels and nothing fancy (mostly 700 actions) with a little trigger clean up and adjustment if necessary. If I can deal with the wind and mirage issues, I can kill all the prairie dogs I want at 400+. I'm more concerned about overcleaning a barrel and damaging it during a cleaning session than not removing copper fouling that is a necessary evil in my simple mind.

 

[Matt Cashell]

I am with Mike.

It really depends on the rifle. I have a custom barreled 7-08 that I doubt I would have to clean the copper out of ever. It also shoots right to POA cleaned to bare metal.

Then there is my 300 RUM that takes about 5 rounds from a clean barrel to shoot, and if I don't clean it around 100 rounds accuracy suffers a little.

I once had a Savage 270 WSM that collected copper like it was a miner. With a clean barrel it shot lights out, but by 25 rounds groups opened up, and after 50 it was spraying buckshot. using a flashlight down the barrel revealed shiny copper for 6 inches from the muzzle and 6 inches from the chamber.

Wipe-Out does knock it out totally, and you won't harm your barrel when you are just pushing patches through.

 

[Hunt'nFish]

I agree match grade, hand lapped barrels don't foul nearly very much bad as factory barrels.
But like most, I'm hunting w/ decent moa factory rifles inside 500yds.
So here's what I do.

First thing I do is clean it really, REALLY well....no copper traces.
Then I fire lap using 600-1000grit to substitute for air-gaged hand lapping.
After that, I skip normal barrel break in procedures and just clean at the end of every season whether it needs it or not. I oil for storage and then come next season I re-clean it & de-grease the barrel w/ a good nylon brush scrubbing of 99% IPA (isopropyl alcohol) to remove any trace of solvents. This really reduces the number of fouling shots required to burn out remnant solvent. Then I go re-check zero for the season and go hunting. Usually only takes 3rds to settle.....basically I shoot a group and check that the last rounds went to my historical zero.

Currently I use Sweets 7.62 and nylon brush from breach. (I'm assuming everyone knows the importance of cleaning from the breach, right?) But after hearing you guys talk up the foam, I might have to give that a try. But honestly I don't shoot enough to worry about fouling too much, cleaning post season after shooting maybe 11rds (5rds @ 300yds & 3rds @ 500yds, plus 1rd each to kill my deer, bear, & elk (wink)), I don't find fouling to ever be an issue.

I know, I know I should be shooting more, but once I get a rifle handload developed and rifle sighted in, I tend to stop messing w/ it and just hunt.
Anyway that's what I do.
Hunt'nFish

 

[tstowater]

Matt: I wouldn't keep any gun that I have to clean every 25 rounds. Do you think you had a bad barrel or something else? I would never get any shooting done on a prairie dog trip as I would be cleaning my gun all the time. I'm more concerned about overheating a barrel in a volume shooting situation than anything else.

If I have bought the gun new, I will try to "break in" the barrel in an appropriate way. I have bought quite a number of used guns, especially Model 700's, without any accuracy issues and I have no clue whether any were broke in "correctly" or how many rounds have been shot through the gun.

For a big game hunting gun, I'm more concerned about functionality and not having to worry about how many rounds I have shot since cleaning (too clean or too dirty). As I use the same load all the time for my 300WSM and I am comfortable with the gun's handling, I don't spend a lot of time shooting it as I do quite a bit of other shooting. I just haven't found it necessary to shoot the gun 150 times before I go on a hunt when the gun is dead-on and I have verified that with a lot less shots and the gun's feel is engrained in my mind. IMO

 

[Matt Cashell]

tst,

I didn't keep it. I think the barrel was a lemon, although man would it shoot when clean! I also think shooting lubalox coated bullets played a role, and may have ruined the barrel, but that is just speculation.

I do think overbore/high velocity cartridges tend to copper foul more. I have had great luck with the .308 based cartridges and low amounts of copper fouling, even .243.

 

[Coyote Commander]

I shoot an old Ruger M77 in .270 and still haven't figured out how often I need to clean the barrel of copper fouling. It seems to shoot around 20-30 rounds with no lost accuracy. But then again, I shoot hand loads sometimes and it will shoot even more. I'm at a loss since I was given the rifle from my uncle who was given it by my grandfather. I'm not sure how well or what regiment it was always cleaned with

Clean it when you notice its loosing accuracy (this will be far more than 20-30 rounds).

These guys that clean a rifle after a couple dozen shots are nuts.

If your rifle is a 1/2 MOA shooter, and one day you notice it wont shoot better than 3/4 MOA, time to clean.

I clean my .260 MAYBE every couple hundred rounds. My old .22-250 id clean once a year (end of coyote season), that rifle could shoot 1000 rounds and never loose consistency or accuracy. The .22-250 im shooting now lasts about 300-400 rounds before I notice the accuracy starting to slip.

I also dont buy into this need to get a bore shiney spotless inside. I run a patch soaked in a good solvent down the tube, let it soak a few minutes, brush it a dozen strokes or so, than swab out till dry. If the last patches were still "blue", I might do it again. I dont strive to get "clean patches". I dont want clean patches. I just want to take the bulk of it out and "freshen it up" some. If the last few patches come out gray instead of black and blue, mission accomplished, lets go kill something.

Like most things, guys over think cleaning a rifle.

 

[crazy_davey]

Sounds like a few of you need to try Dyna Bore Coat(Google it). Sounds like a snake oil but actually does work. I have seen it do some amazing things with bores that would copper foul very quickly. It has opened my eyes to something I never thought could work.

 

[tstowater]

Sounds like a few of you need to try Dyna Bore Coat(Google it). Sounds like a snake oil but actually does work. I have seen it do some amazing things with bores that would copper foul very quickly. It has opened my eyes to something I never thought could work.

That's worth looking into. I like the concept for muzzleloader, especially. Why not just "break-in" a gun and do this for every gun if it really works. I know that there are gun smiths on this, what do you think???

 

[crazy_davey]

Why not just "break-in" a gun and do this for every gun if it really works.

I do now.

I have seen nothing but positives from this product so every rifle gets it now. I actually first read about it from John Barsness over on 24hourcampfire, he talked about dealing with some of the same issues I was having with a particular rifle. My findings after applying it were exactly as he described the outcome would be.