Cooper Muzzleloader ?

[dotman]

Where were the pics and video of this from Shot Show or did I miss it? Hopefully Cooper gets on here and tells us more.

http://www.namlhunt.com/mlrifle17.html

It would be awesome if they offered it with a Manners Lightweight Hunter stock but looks like wood will be the only option.

 

[sabotloader]

Where were the pics and video of this from Shot Show or did I miss it? Hopefully Cooper gets on here and tells us more.

http://www.namlhunt.com/mlrifle17.html

It would be awesome if they offered it with a Manners Lightweight Hunter stock but looks like wood will be the only option.

Extremely nice looking rifles, I wonder what the price range is going to be?

 

[robby denning]

dotman, we took some great video at SHOT. It's the only video that the video editor can't read. Ryan has it out to a pro right now who's trying to figure out what's wrong so hoping we can get it posted. If not, I'll get with Cooper for more info.

I saw and held the new muzz's. They are nice looking guns, 26" barrels, legal everywhere except Idaho, Washington, and Oregon but might be there soon. Right now they're guaranteeing 2" at 100 but are working on shrinking that. Right now it's just wood but we did talk about the lightweight Manners options. Gun iwill be out this year but should see a few changes quickly as they come into the market.

Hope we can get the video up.

 

[dotman]

Great news, if they go with the lightweight manners gonna be hard to pass up if pricing isn't too crazy.

 

[sabotloader]

Great news, if they go with the lightweight manners gonna be hard to pass up if pricing isn't too crazy.

The one negative I see is the length of the bolt throw - It just adds to the total length and weight distribution of the rifle. It really looks like they used the Remington long action receiver versus the Short Action 700.

 

[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

Hey guys,
Just wanted to answer your questions, the price range for our Muzzleloaders will range from $1595.00-$3095.00. It will be available in the Classic, Jackson Game, Schnabel, Custom Classic, and Western Classic. It will also be available in left hand as well. We build our own actions. It is our short action and we realize that bolt action muzzle loaders are not the optimal action to be used for muzzleloaders; we have done everything to make it as optimal as possible. The bolt does not come all the way back as it does not need to eject any shells. I have also listed the specs below for your review. If anybody has any questions, please let me know.

[email protected]

Steve

MODEL 22 ML SPECIFICATIONS:

• ACTION: Stainless or Blued (Chrome Moly) steel with one rear locking lug bolt action muzzle loader. *see foot note.
• MAGAZINE: N/A
• EXTRACTION: Primer is held captive in a slotted bolt face, which allows positive extraction from the breech plug & easy manual removal from the bolt face.
• EJECTION: N/A
• TRIGGER: Timney single stage trigger.
• ACTION DIMENSIONS: 8.25” x 1.3”
• AVAILABLE CALIBERS: 50
• SAFETY: Two position on tang.
• PASSIVE SAFETIES: Bolt handle acts as safety lug when in the locked (in battery) position. Action has gas vent holes.
• WEIGHT: 7.75 #
• LENGTH: 44 ¾” with 26” barrel
• BARREL: Stainless or blued (Chrome Moly) steel, 26” 50 caliber 1x28 twist. Barrel has 11 degree target crown beveled to facilitate loading from the muzzle. *see foot note
• BREECH PLUG: Stainless steel, removable with supplied tool.
• STOCKS: Walnut or exotic species with hand checkering (various grades) or laminate (various color schemes). All stocks are glass bedded.
Available in Classic, Custom classic, western classic, Schnabel, and Jackson game.
• IGNITION: #209 shotgun primer
• RAM ROD: Easton carbon fiber core with aluminum sheath, extendable, brass tips threaded 10/32 for accessories.
• SIGHTING EQUIPMENT: Action is drilled & tapped to accept standard Cooper scope bases or the Ken Farrell picatinney rail for the Model 22 action.
Open sights are an option & are New England Custom Guns top mount variety.

The Model 22 ML is rated to handle standard “Magnum” (150 grains, volume) of black powder or a substitute. It IS rated to handle Black Horn 209 powder. It is NOT rated for smokeless powder.
* Action cannot be converted to fire center fire cartridges.

 

[sabotloader]

Thank you for the information... Answers a lot of questions for me.

For myself I can only tell you I much prefer a bolt action and single piece stock to a break open rifle and I think there is a group of people that would also subscribe to that thought. The problem being that many ML hunters use their rifle for a very short season of time and because of that the less expensive break opens are the more popular. I choose to hunt all year including regular rifle season with a ML. I also tend to shoot them a lot for recreational range shooting. So the bolt works best for me.

OK now the nitty gritty... the length of the bolt. You say "It is our short action" in the picture I posted it does looks to me to be based on a Remington 700 long action. I have had several Remington 700 ML's which were based on the short action and that does help reduce the overall length of the rifle. Restricting the length of the pull back of the bolt is a thought, but I guess I am asking why not reduce the length of the bolt and receiver but the amount of restriction to reduce the total length of the rifle.

Never mind, I think I know the answer myself no that I think about it. It would require you to have a completely different machining setup than what is your current standard for building your center fire rifles. Increased costs to you and the consumer.

One more question... when the Rem 700 ML was first built and submitted using the Remington 700 short action the government would not qualify it as a muzzleloader because the locking lugs were in place on the bolt and the barrel was removable so it could be converted to a center fire. Is that ruling still in place? and are your bolts equipped with the locking lugs?

Thanks for your time - mike

 

[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

Greetings Rok Sliders, My name is Glenn & I believe I can answer any of your questions about the Cooper ML shown above. I had a hand in it's creation.

Sabotloader is correct about why we didn't start with a "clean sheet" action design. The other reason is that Cooper is a company known for bolt action rifles & we did not want a radical departure from our "norm" & our hope was to entice our existing fans who live in states that are favorable to ML hunting.

The action is our own (made in Montana) & is heavily based off of our Model 22 action. The Model 22 is a short action, single shot bolt action rifle. It's most popular chambering is probably 22-250 or 220 Swift but it will handle other rounds as well. It's a versatile action.

The Model 22 ML does not have the same bolt as the normal Model 22. It is shorter & does not have the Cooper characteristic 3 front locking lugs & the action has no recesses for them even if the bolt did have them. The barrel also uses different threads than the Model 22. In short, there is no way to convert it to center fire. I don't know if making a ML out of an action intended for super accurate varmint rifles will make it shoot any better, but it sure can't hurt!

The actions & barrels are all either 4140 chrome Moly or 416 stainless steel. The breach plug is heat treated 416 stainless to increase life & reduce flame cutting. There is no sub par non firearms grade steel used.

The rifle's bolt stop is worth mentioning. It looks, feels, & operates just like our normal bolt stop but it is also serves the same purpose as locking lugs would if they were present. It is reminiscent of the lock up of the Rem 700 ML & the Savage 110 MLII. In those rifles the lock up is achieved with a "dog leg" groove in the bolt body & a screw. In the Rem its an Allen head in the back ring of the action & on the Savage its one of the action screws. These set ups have some draw backs in that if the screws aren't fit properly they can be over tightened & bind up the bolt & if they are too loose they can vibrate out on recoil. They also require a tool to remove the bolt. On the Cooper, the same type of lock up is achieved but there is no screw to be too tight or too loose & it requires no tools to remove the bolt.

While testing the rifle for blow back, we fired it in darkness (indoor private range with VERY controlled circumstances for safety) & there was no discernible blow back & the bolt was spotlessly clean.

There is just enough mechanical or primary extraction upon lifting the bolt handle to make extracting even stubborn primers effortless.

I can't think of anything else off the top of my head. If anyone has any questions, please post them. Thanks.

 

[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

Is there a sticky or tutorial on posting pictures? If so I can provide some, if it would interest anyone.

 

[sabotloader]

Glenn, Thanks a bunch for the additional information. The greater our understanding of this quality firearm the better.

I can tell from the picture that is posted above it is one good looking rifle and I would expect to shoot as good as it looks...

mike

 

[sabotloader]

Is there a sticky or tutorial on posting pictures? If so I can provide some, if it would interest anyone.

Glenn you need to upload your picture to a site like Photobucket then select and copy the IMG link under the picture to paste in your post....

The link looks something like this... but needs brackets like this around the first IMG statement [ ] I took them out so you could see the pasted line.

IMG http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/P1010003.jpg[/IMG]





The other thing if you want is to email the pics and I will upload them and post them for you.

 

[dotman]

Glenn & Steve, can you guys confirm a synthetic stocked version? While wood looks great I only run synthetic on my hunting setups, would be great to see a manners or McMillian stock on this.

 

[sabotloader]

This might be a better picture of their short action... But still it looks like the receiver is the same basic length. But this does look a lot better to me, even though it really does not reduce the total length of the rifle. And I should say for you guys hunting in the wide open spaces the total length probably doesn't make much difference but for my self in the scrubs and the timber here in Idaho it can sometimes be a consideration.

Steve or Glenn can correct me if I am wrong

But DANG! those are awful darn good looking machined beauties!!!

 

[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

Tim,
At this time a laminate is the closest thing to a synthetic that we are offering. If sales or demand warrants it I'm sure we would offer a synthetic. IF we offered a synthetic, it would probably be a B&C Medalist or perhaps a Manners product. It's just hard to say at this point.

 

[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

Sabotloader,

The rifle you are showing is the Model 57-M, which is a rimfire. The action length of the M22 is 8.25" long, if that helps. In all honesty, it is a long rifle, there just isn't any way to sugar coat that. I've used it in dark timber (on the slopes of Trapper Peak in the Bitterroots) & it wasn't obnoxious to use, but it's not a Marlin Guide Gun or a Winchester M94 Trapper either. For serious brush country or PNW rain forest use, I think a shorter more specialized rifle would be handier. I'll try to get some pics up to give you guys a better idea of it's scale.

 

[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

 

[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

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[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

 

[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

 

[Cooper Firearms of Montana]

These pictures are of myself & two other employees here during this past MT hunting season. All three deer were taken in the Bitterroot. The two rifles shown are prototypes that were made during the R&D process & they are basically exactly what the finished product will be. These rifles are stocked in French walnut instead of the standard claro walnut. French is available at an extra cost if someone wants it. The only other difference is the barrel length. These rifles have 24" barrels & the finalized version of the rifles have a 26". I hope these pictures of the rifles shown with people & game animals for scale helps. Thanks.