Convince me to shoot monolithics again

[ElPollo]

I think your opinions and feelings are preventing you from understanding the nuance of this discussion. I am not speaking in absolutes, you are.

Yes reasons are based on facts and data, you just failed to appreciate that "large volume would channels across a wide range of impact velocities" is not ALWAYS the needed result. Hence your absolute statement was flawed. Is it a more versatile result for a wide range of scenarios? Certainly. But we aren't always limited to one option for every single hunting shot and situation. Personally I have a mono load and a ELDM load for a given rifle, I can use whichever suits my preference and the scenario.

I too would avoid barnes below 2100fps, not sure about some of the others yet.


Example: why if shooting a pronghorn in a wide open field at a range that allowed a mono to impact with ample velocity and conditions/shooter that allowed excellent bullet placement would one have to have a large volume wound channel? FACTS / DATA: They aren't a tough animal to kill, they don't need a big wound, those conditions don't create a worry about loosing track of them assuming they don't just drop right there.

That doesn't mean a "large volume would channels across a wide range of impact velocities" is inappropriate for the above scenario, it just isn't the only solution to the situation that will result in a promptly killed and retrieved animal.

Not trying to be difficult here, but also not getting the nuance you are referring to. I used monos for about 15 years and then switched back to lead. Have lots of experience with them but have not used every option. From what I’ve seen, the only non-lead option that comes close to doing what lead bullets do is the DRT. I don’t have a ton of experience with them yet, and have heard some reports of inconsistencies.

But here is the nuance on copper alloy monos based on my experience.

The primary reason people tend to use these is concern over lead toxicity. That is a politically charged topic that I would prefer not to see derail this thread. There is no published evidence that eating game killed with lead affects the blood lead levels, but there are lots of other things that do affect those levels. I will leave this issue here.

People generally tout penetration as a primary factor for why they should use monos, but I’ve yet to experience A situation where I have not had sufficient penetration to kill an animal with lead bullets. I have experienced multiple occasions where non-lead bullets have failed to exit deer and elk, even on broadside shots. So my personal experience on this is it that it’s a moot point.

With respect to the wound channels. Death is caused by damage to tissues. More damage means higher incapacitation rates, shorter distance traveled post shot, and higher recovery rates. A larger wound channel also means a higher probability that it intersects with critical organs and blood vessels. That means minor variability in shot placement has less effect on incapacitation rates. Monos don’t do any of that better than something like an eldm.

But people complain that fragmenting bullets destroy too much meat. Those same people mostly shoot shoulders and high shoulder shots. They generally do this because they want to “anchor” the animal and reduce post-shot travel and tracking. This is a circular argument. They are choosing a shot location that impacts more meat to kill an animal quicker with a bullet that makes less damage. If you use a bullet that makes more damage, shoulder shots aren’t as important. But complaining the same bullet does to much damage with a shoulder shot makes no sense.

To get larger wound channels with monos you have to shoot larger projectiles faster than lead projectiles. That means increased recoil and decreased accuracy which also corresponds to decreased incapacitation rates, longer post-shot travel and decreased recovery rates. Again, no benefit to monos.

Monos are more velocity-sensitive which means you have to limit your maximum range. The ballistic tipped fragmenting bullets discussed commonly here perform well down to 1800 and some down to 1600 fps impact velocity. I am not aware of a moon that performs well below 200 fps impacts, and the ones I’ve used worked way better at 2200. I think this is one of the least important factors because most people shouldn’t be shooting game far enough to make the difference worth while. That said it’s still an edge to the lead bullets.

Monos also tend to have significantly lower BCs. Much of this is related to the density of the material, so there really isn’t a way to improve it. You end up with longer bullets for a given mass which also makes them more sensitive barrel twist and less stable. Many of the monos you mentioned also have questionable BC values reported by the manufacturer. Again most people shouldn’t be shooting far enough for any of this to matter to make this matter much. But no benefit for using monos.

And there’s cost. Monos are more expensive to manufacture and may are made by small boutique manufacturers. They are more expensive across the board. Many are a handload proposition only. Again, no advantage.

Can you kill stuff with them? Yes, I’ve killed a lot of stuff with them. But aside from being legally required to use them, I cannot come up with a single reason to choose to use them over a good fragmenting lead bullet. If you like them, that’s great. But I personally wouldn’t advise someone to use them unless they are required to do so.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

My answer to your question is yes. We’ve had excellent results with the 130 TTSX out of a 270 Win at an average MV of 3,050 and a 145 LRX out of a 280 Rem at 3,013 fps. Fairly quick kills and modest meat damage. A number of Deer & Elk and a Moose the last 10 ish years. All exited but the 130 TTSX on the Moose. All under 350yards, most under 200.

I prefer mono’s for openish country meat hunts to moderate range, 400 and in. The 280 gives the LRX enough speed to be viable to 600 ish. For my grandkids and/or W OR brushy type hunts, we strongly prefer a more fragile heavy for caliber bullet to up the odds of a bang flop.

So depending on the hunt goals I am all over the place. Different guns like different bullets and hunt goals often differ. So embrace diversity in bullets too is how we roll.

Yes sir!

BTW, I've also shot a fair few with the 145lrx also in the past (280ai at 3130fps) its an effective round!

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Not trying to be difficult here, but also not getting the nuance you are referring to.

I used monos for about 15 years and then switched back to lead. Have lots of experience with them but have not used every option. From what I’ve seen, the only non-lead option that comes close to doing what lead bullets do is the DRT. I don’t have a ton of experience with them yet, and have heard some reports of inconsistencies.

No disagreement.

But here is the nuance on copper alloy monos based on my experience.

The primary reason people tend to use these is concern over lead toxicity. That is a politically charged topic that I would prefer not to see derail this thread. There is no published evidence that eating game killed with lead affects the blood lead levels, but there are lots of other things that do affect those levels. I will leave this issue here.

Its a reason for some, as noted we'll leave this one here.

People generally tout penetration as a primary factor for why they should use monos, but I’ve yet to experience A situation where I have not had sufficient penetration to kill an animal with lead bullets. I have experienced multiple occasions where non-lead bullets have failed to exit deer and elk, even on broadside shots. So my personal experience on this is it that it’s a moot point.

Some tout it, I'm not gonna argue for it, esp. for those that want "hard raking shots".

With respect to the wound channels. Death is caused by damage to tissues. More damage means higher incapacitation rates, shorter distance traveled post shot, and higher recovery rates. A larger wound channel also means a higher probability that it intersects with critical organs and blood vessels. That means minor variability in shot placement has less effect on incapacitation rates. Monos don’t do any of that better than something like an eldm.

Never argued they do it better. In some applications they do it well enough though.

But people complain that fragmenting bullets destroy too much meat. Those same people mostly shoot shoulders and high shoulder shots. They generally do this because they want to “anchor” the animal and reduce post-shot travel and tracking. This is a circular argument. They are choosing a shot location that impacts more meat to kill an animal quicker with a bullet that makes less damage. If you use a bullet that makes more damage, shoulder shots aren’t as important. But complaining the same bullet does to much damage with a shoulder shot makes no sense.

That is a viable argument for those cases. Its not relevant for shooting lungs with a mono in open country as a counter point.

To get larger wound channels with monos you have to shoot larger projectiles faster than lead projectiles. That means increased recoil and decreased accuracy which also corresponds to decreased incapacitation rates, longer post-shot travel and decreased recovery rates. Again, no benefit to monos.

Yes faster for sure and larger can help. If that pushes someone outside their comfort zone that can affect accuracy, but that happens with anyone over gunned. Plenty of lead core shooters over gun needlessly and some mono shooters run something more reasonable and limit their ranges, etc.

Monos are more velocity-sensitive which means you have to limit your maximum range. The ballistic tipped fragmenting bullets discussed commonly here perform well down to 1800 and some down to 1600 fps impact velocity. I am not aware of a moon that performs well below 200 fps impacts, and the ones I’ve used worked way better at 2200. I think this is one of the least important factors because most people shouldn’t be shooting game far enough to make the difference worth while. That said it’s still an edge to the lead bullets.

Sure, I already agreed on that before. Its one of the reasons I have eldm loads in the same gun I have a mono load.

Monos also tend to have significantly lower BCs. Much of this is related to the density of the material, so there really isn’t a way to improve it. You end up with longer bullets for a given mass which also makes them more sensitive barrel twist and less stable. Many of the monos you mentioned also have questionable BC values reported by the manufacturer. Again most people shouldn’t be shooting far enough for any of this to matter to make this matter much. But no benefit for using monos.

Agreed and never argued that as a benefit to monos.

And there’s cost. Monos are more expensive to manufacture and may are made by small boutique manufacturers. They are more expensive across the board. Many are a handload proposition only. Again, no advantage.

Agreed and never argued that as a benefit to monos.

Can you kill stuff with them? Yes, I’ve killed a lot of stuff with them. But aside from being legally required to use them, I cannot come up with a single reason to choose to use them over a good fragmenting lead bullet. If you like them, that’s great. But I personally wouldn’t advise someone to use them unless they are required to do so.

YOU can't think of a reason you'd want to choose them, that is your opinion and feeling at that point. You aren't in any way wrong for personally choosing not to use monos or advising others you don't think there is a reason to use them. That is different from saying there is NO reason to use them, because others have different pros/cons to weigh that you do.

No one is saying they are better, etc. Merely clarifying they are completely viable when the user understands them and the limitations. That is the nuance part.

 

[ShakoMako]

I have had several notable successes and no losses with Barnes 130 grain TTSX in 308 handloads. Chronographed at 3030 from a 20” suppressed browning xbolt. These and some federal trophy copper 150 grain stand out in my memory as memorable “Finger of God” off switches. One whitetail buck at 75 yards did a backflip and dropped stone dead. Another at 140 yards dropped stone dead in his tracks. Last weekend I took the top of a buck’s heart at 240 and found him dead within 10 yards. Some smashed up ribs on this pass thru, not a breathtaking wound channel but obviously did the work impressively. Just my experience.

 

[hibernation]

I prefer mono’s for openish country meat hunts to moderate range, 400 and in. The 280 gives the LRX enough speed to be viable to 600 ish. For my grandkids and/or W OR brushy type hunts, we strongly prefer a more fragile heavy for caliber bullet to up the odds of a bang flop.

That's what I'm moving towards, I hunt both sides of Oregon and it's no big deal for an elk to run through sagebrush for a bit.

Coast range is different. Having a deer drop over the edge of some steep reprod is rough and has caused me some heartache. Blood trailing through young firs, everything's wet, there's dead bracken ferns up to your waist, and there's slash below all the growth so you can't hardly walk through it either. I want something closer to bang flop in that country.

 

[Caseknife]

That's what I'm moving towards, I hunt both sides of Oregon and it's no big deal for an elk to run through sagebrush for a bit.

Coast range is different. Having a deer drop over the edge of some steep reprod is rough and has caused me some heartache. Blood trailing through young firs, everything's wet, there's dead bracken ferns up to your waist, and there's slash below all the growth so you can't hardly walk through it either. I want something closer to bang flop in that country.

Try the 124 Hammer Hunters in your 6.5 CM.

 

[Macintosh]

@ElPollo that is all correct for the most part. The only quibble I have is that many of us hunt in places where choosing or waiting for the perfect shot angle simply isnt viable. You take the shot that’s presented and you take it fast, or you eat tag soup, often for many years running. I dont intentionally shoot high shoulder, I shoot the best shot I have. Often that hits one shoulder because shots are rarely perfectly broadside. And I shoot smallish deer, so losing most of a shoulder is a real thing with some bullets. Consequently I choose to use a mono, because it A) works reliably in my experience (prerequisite) and B) wastes much less meat than the lead bullets I had been using. I am not sure what is controversial about this. Im not going to argue that it is BETTER, only that it is better FOR ME. Hopefully you can at least see the perspective even if your needs and priorities are different.

(Not directed at anyone)
What is ironic to me is the whole small caliber thing on rokslide is predicated on using highly damaging bullets, but downsizing the bullet in order to reduce the wound channel to something that is acceptable, because a eldm or a tmk in a .300 magnum is too much for almost anyone on a deer. And here we have someone using a standard cartridge choosing to downsize the wound by taking a different approach, and taking flak for it. I understand the recoil argument, which is a good one, but in concept reducing a wound is something that has a lot of support on this forum, and it’s odd to me that people don’t accept a different solution to accomplish a similar goal.

 

[ElPollo]

No disagreement.

Its a reason for some, as noted we'll leave this one here.

Some tout it, I'm not gonna argue for it, esp. for those that want "hard raking shots".

Never argued they do it better. In some applications they do it well enough though.

That is a viable argument for those cases. Its not relevant for shooting lungs with a mono in open country as a counter point.

Yes faster for sure and larger can help. If that pushes someone outside their comfort zone that can affect accuracy, but that happens with anyone over gunned. Plenty of lead core shooters over gun needlessly and some mono shooters run something more reasonable and limit their ranges, etc.

Sure, I already agreed on that before. Its one of the reasons I have eldm loads in the same gun I have a mono load.

Agreed and never argued that as a benefit to monos.

Agreed and never argued that as a benefit to monos.

YOU can't think of a reason you'd want to choose them, that is your opinion and feeling at that point. You aren't in any way wrong for personally choosing not to use monos or advising others you don't think there is a reason to use them. That is different from saying there is NO reason to use them, because others have different pros/cons to weigh that you do.

No one is saying they are better, etc. Merely clarifying they are completely viable when the user understands them and the limitations. That is the nuance part.

Don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. Viable option? Sure. Better than a rock tied to a stick? Certainly. But that’s not really what he asked. The OP asked for reasons to convince him to use monos over a good fragmenting lead core bullet. Like I said, I’ve used them both a lot. And I can’t come up with a good reason for ME or for HIM to use them. I did not mean to infer no one should use them (except for the 1,000 yard statement because doing so is just silly and cruel for the animal). Just said I cannot think of anything the monos can do better.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

(Not directed at anyone)
What is ironic to me is the whole small caliber thing on rokslide is predicated on using highly damaging bullets, but downsizing the bullet in order to reduce the wound channel to something that is acceptable, because a eldm or a tmk in a .300 magnum is too much for almost anyone on a deer.

Folks aren't going smaller caliber for reducing the wound channel while using eldms (or such), they are using a smaller caliber that is easier to shoot reliably/accurately/repeatedly/see follow up shots/etc. that has an adequate wound channel.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. Viable option? Sure. Better than a rock tied to a stick? Certainly. But that’s not really what he asked. The OP asked for reasons to convince him to use monos over a good fragmenting lead core bullet. Like I said, I’ve used them both a lot. And I can’t come up with a good reason for ME or for HIM to use them. I did not mean to infer no one should use them (except for the 1,000 yard statement because doing so is just silly and cruel for the animal). Just said I cannot think of anything the monos can do better.

Your statement that caught me in the mood to reply was "There is no reason to use copper monos unless you are required to"

It was an absolute without a personal preference qualifier, yadda yadda. That's all, we've all clarified and think we understand the perspectives fine now?

 

[dårlig jeger]

Ryan Muckenhirn from Vortex is a huge proponent of the 130 ttsx in 308 win and the 212 bore rider in WSM. A few of his videos waxing poetic about Barnes bullets and their performance can be pretty convincing.

 

[Formidilosus]

Folks aren't going smaller caliber for reducing the wound channel while using eldms (or such), they are using a smaller caliber that is easier to shoot reliably/accurately/repeatedly/see follow up shots/etc. that has an adequate wound channel.

I think both are true. For me personally, and those in around- we generally use the largest wound producing projectile in a caliber/cartridge available. Then, go down in caliber/cartridge until the wounds are acceptable.

I/we also use standard monos for certain hunts where animal loss/tracking isn’t a thing, and where meat loss is a concern; doe antelope is specially one of them- a 77gr TMK in antelopes can cause a lot of meat loss that isn’t necessary.

 

[moxford]

I don’t care for monos much, but a heavy LRX out of some rifles should reach 1,000 I believe.

The 212 .30 cal Bore rider has a G1 of .705.

Note, those 212 bore riders are stupid long and need to be single fed as they don't fit in magazines. 208 LRX is more "normal" and has a G1 of 0.633 (212 ELD-X has a G1 of .663 so pretty darn close ballistically.) And yes, 208 LRX does reach to 1000 yards but with a 2800 fps launch velocity it's only at ~ 1550 fps way down range. It's still 208gr @ 1550 fps so while expansion may be limited, it's still a whole lot more energy (and momentum!) than, say, a point-blank 1200fps 220 gr 10mm hardcast (generally touted as "serious bear medicine" for the ability to penetrate deeply).

YMMV.

Cheers,
-mox

 

[elkhunter505]

Unlike others, I’ve seen insane accuracy out of Hornady CX from my 6.5. Is the damage always crazy? No. But are the animals that have been hit with the bullets dead when I put it in the right spot? Absolutely. If anything, my lack of shooting prowess in the last year has caused me to become a better shooter because I took too many heart string tugging follow ups on spined animals where the mono did not cut the dorsal artery. However, when I have put them in the correct spot, they kill very effectively. Take this for example. 330 yard mule deer, through the center of the shoulder. Heart absolutely in tatters.


However, the vast majority of the animals I shoot with them act like animals shot with an arrow unless I take out shoulders or CNS. That being said, I almost exclusively hunt open country where tracking is not really a thought. I will be trying different options like Hammer and Macguire in the future to see if they cause more damage for my benefit when I fail as a shooter. But in the meantime, I am upping my shooting prowess. Will also likely be trying a .243 with monos to see how it kills. I shoot copper nearly solely for the benefit to raptors and other scavenging birds like vultures.

 

[Macintosh]

Folks aren't going smaller caliber for reducing the wound channel while using eldms (or such), they are using a smaller caliber that is easier to shoot reliably/accurately/repeatedly/see follow up shots/etc. that has an adequate wound channel.

Agree with form on this, its both. For sure I could have phrased it better. But the fact is most people DONT want the wound you get shooting a deer with a heavy .308+ caliber eldm or tmk or SST at 100 yards. That wound is unacceptably large in many cases, I dont think Im out on a limb saying that. Even if it isnt the primary motivator for going down in cartridge, its a legit factor. If one has a sentimental gun or doesnt want to get a different gun for any reason, adjusting bullet type to achieve the desired optimum wound channel—regardless of whether that means a bigger or smaller wound—makes perfect sense to me.

 

[AlaskaRed]

Use mono's if you hunt in Bear or dangerous game country. A 22 arc on big game is cute until you are dealing with an angry bear in your face. Large magnums with solid bullets work in dangerous game encounters. Been a standard for hunting in Africa and known for years. Same applies in Bear country. The big magnums with more "frangible" style bullets cause more meat damage than I'd prefer on the things I want to eat. This is an exercise of compromise. Outside of this, generally speaking, most bullet types kill in well placed shots. I shot 4 animals this year with mono's that required no tracking. Shoot whatever is giving you accuracy.