Convince me to shoot monolithics again

[TaperPin]

If you shoot 7mm try out the 141hbc and report back. Curious about that one.

I’m curious about that one as well. I don’t blame them for not hiring someone to put the plastic tips in, but the first time I read that caused a double take. lol

 

[Chris in TN]

About every decade I go all in on monos, get frustrated with poor accuracy and performance on game and put them aside for another decade hoping someone fixes the short comings.

I remember when PMC first started loading the original Barnes X in factory ammo, I got a couple boxes for 30-06 and accuracy was, ehhh, poor, but I thought they were awesome in how they killed (eta: this was early 1990's). At some point I realized that high-shoulder shots might be helping my impression of them and otherwise they weren't that great, so I went back to cup/core. Then I bought a .308 and was convinced I needed to shoot light monos for more speed so I insisted on focusing on Barnes X (or XBT, I forget, it's been 30 years) and, oddly enough, the gun shot like crap. So I sold it. Fast forward another ~15 years and I shot some TSXs. They worked but nothing special. Both lungs, deer runs a ways then dies. Fast forward another few years and I tried some Cutting Edge Raptors. Really accurate but terrible BC. Then I tried some PVA Cayugas in my .280ai. Again, lower than advertised BC.

I'm through. Short of some mandate I am simply through with monos.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I’m curious about that one as well. I don’t blame them for not hiring someone to put the plastic tips in, but the first time I read that caused a double take. lol

They're supposed to be getting a machine, its WAY overdue, no clue what is going on there as I haven't followed.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I've only ever used factory Barnes monos, are any of the others you've used substantially different? Cutting edge, hammers, etc.

Do those bullets feel like a step up in terminal performance, in terms of distance traveled? Or similar enough that I might not even notice?

I think a FAST impacting barnes is a different beast than a slower one for starters.

The petal shedders do create a different wound, the petals break off so it creates a larger wound in that zone and then they radiate outwards so it cuts some additional smaller paths. This is still less dramatic than a eldm so shot placement still matters. Others have more experience on the specifics, I am mainly speaking about calibrating expectations and shot placement.

Hammer bullets I have tried shot very well in terms of accuracy, I had mixed terminal performance on their non-tipped bullets. With the introduction of their tipped lines I'd personally start there with them if trying them again. Folks complain right now you have to install your own tips. Also hammer has had a history of inflating BC numbers (worse than others) which has pissed folks off.

Cutting edge lazer I've only shot 2 animals so far and also haven't seen a ton of reports yet but so far so good. They were a little more finicky to load for, seating depth seemed to matter more (my chamber didn't allow me to simply follow their recommendations).

I keep wanting to try monos on small cartridges when I go elk hunting. Especially since most shots are under 100 yards but I still have reservation there too.

Don't shoot for just lungs if so.

 

[hibernation]

I think a FAST impacting barnes is a different beast than a slower one for starters.

The petal shedders do create a different wound, the petals break off so it creates a larger wound in that zone and then they radiate outwards so it cuts some additional smaller paths. This is still less dramatic than a eldm so shot placement still matters. Others have more experience on the specifics, I am mainly speaking about calibrating expectations and shot placement.

Hammer bullets I have tried shot very well in terms of accuracy, I had mixed terminal performance on their non-tipped bullets. With the introduction of their tipped lines I'd personally start there with them if trying them again. Folks complain right now you have to install your own tips. Also hammer has had a history of inflating BC numbers (worse than others) which has pissed folks off.

Cutting edge lazer I've only shot 2 animals so far and also haven't seen a ton of reports yet but so far so good. They were a little more finicky to load for, seating depth seemed to matter more (my chamber didn't allow me to simply follow their recommendations).

Thanks for the info, I'm just gearing up to start reloading and trying to decide where to start first. Hammer / Cutting Edge or DRT are the top contenders right now.

 

[ElPollo]

AND this statement (you and other say it) is also annoying. There are definitely reasons to choose to shoot monos if you want to, just deploy them correctly / with the correct expectations.

Absolute statements are typically foolish statements.

So I guess reasons don’t have to be tied to facts or data. They can be solely based on opinions and feelings. Fair enough. But from the data I’ve collected and seen, monos are definitely not my first choice for producing large volume wound channels across a wide range of impact velocities. And below about 2100, I would not use them on game.

 

[Macintosh]

Elpollo, I think wanting a smaller wound is a legit reason that isnt a “feeling” any more so than wanting a larger wound is a “feeling”. Destroying an entire deer shoulder is a very real physical thing that doesnt require “feeling” to decide its not what you prefer—that is very much grounded in facts and data.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

So I guess reasons don’t have to be tied to facts or data. They can be solely based on opinions and feelings. Fair enough. But from the data I’ve collected and seen, monos are definitely not my first choice for producing large volume wound channels across a wide range of impact velocities. And below about 2100, I would not use them on game.

I think your opinions and feelings are preventing you from understanding the nuance of this discussion. I am not speaking in absolutes, you are.

Yes reasons are based on facts and data, you just failed to appreciate that "large volume would channels across a wide range of impact velocities" is not ALWAYS the needed result. Hence your absolute statement was flawed. Is it a more versatile result for a wide range of scenarios? Certainly. But we aren't always limited to one option for every single hunting shot and situation. Personally I have a mono load and a ELDM load for a given rifle, I can use whichever suits my preference and the scenario.

I too would avoid barnes below 2100fps, not sure about some of the others yet.


Example: why if shooting a pronghorn in a wide open field at a range that allowed a mono to impact with ample velocity and conditions/shooter that allowed excellent bullet placement would one have to have a large volume wound channel? FACTS / DATA: They aren't a tough animal to kill, they don't need a big wound, those conditions don't create a worry about loosing track of them assuming they don't just drop right there.

That doesn't mean a "large volume would channels across a wide range of impact velocities" is inappropriate for the above scenario, it just isn't the only solution to the situation that will result in a promptly killed and retrieved animal.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Thanks for the info, I'm just gearing up to start reloading and trying to decide where to start first. Hammer / Cutting Edge or DRT are the top contenders right now.

Are you just going for lead free? If lead free the DRT is going to create a more typical frangible bullet wound.

 

[hibernation]

Are you just going for lead free? If lead free the DRT is going to create a more typical frangible bullet wound.

Yeah, lead free. The Barnes have been good for lack of meat loss on certain hits, but I've been getting more nervous with distance travelled as I'm shooting further distances and in thick, steep, brushy country. Blood trailing in steep reprod is the worst.

If the fragmenting monos seem to be substantially better than traditional ones like Barnes, I'll probably start there and see how it goes. If people are having mostly the same experience, maybe marginally better, I'll likely go straight to the DRT.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Yeah, lead free. The Barnes have been good for lack of meat loss on certain hits, but I've been getting more nervous with distance travelled as I'm shooting further distances and in thick, steep, brushy country. Blood trailing in steep reprod is the worst.

If the fragmenting monos seem to be substantially better than traditional ones like Barnes, I'll probably start there and see how it goes. If people are having mostly the same experience, maybe marginally better, I'll likely go straight to the DRT.

Sounds like a reasonable path to test out if you aren't wanting to just shoot a lead frangible.

As I mentioned I have both rounds for a gun and know the associated zero offsets from one or the other. My 284win I specifically set up with the 160gr lazer and 162eldm at the same velocity (within 20fps) and they luckily have nearly the same POI with similar BCs so inside medium hunting distances the dope is nearly 1:1.

 

[z987k]

Yeah, lead free. The Barnes have been good for lack of meat loss on certain hits, but I've been getting more nervous with distance travelled as I'm shooting further distances and in thick, steep, brushy country. Blood trailing in steep reprod is the worst.

If the fragmenting monos seem to be substantially better than traditional ones like Barnes, I'll probably start there and see how it goes. If people are having mostly the same experience, maybe marginally better, I'll likely go straight to the DRT.

I shoot lead free for my own reason, and I've shot a lot of monos. I exclusively use drt in 22 26 and 30 cal for hunting.(thats all they offer them in anymore) The terminal performance is miles better than any mono I've used.
I still load apex in my 338.

 

[Billy Goat]

My 284win I specifically set up with the 160gr lazer and 162eldm at the same velocity (within 20fps) and they luckily have nearly the same POI with similar BCs so inside medium hunting distances the dope is nearly 1:1.

So I'm guessing you aren't noticing any accuracy issues going between mono's and ELDMs?

No experience with it, but hearing of needing to clean the copper out of a barrel to switch to or from mono's. Kinda seems like hearsay, but don't know.


I have pondered setting up a gun to try mono's with, probably a fast 7mm.

But maybe its pretty simple to go back and forth.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

So I'm guessing you aren't noticing any accuracy issues going between mono's and ELDMs?

No experience with it, but hearing of needing to clean the copper out of a barrel to switch to or from mono's. Kinda seems like hearsay, but don't know.


I have pondered setting up a gun to try mono's with, probably a fast 7mm.

But maybe its pretty simple to go back and forth.

This came up in a different thread, I haven't tested to see if I am leaving something on the table. But if loads don't play together I move on. For instance in addition to shooting 162eldms in my 284win the 139lrx shot like crap but right after (same load dev session) some hammers shot perfectly fine. Subsequently I've shot the 160gr lazer in it, all the while shooting 162 eldm also. So would the 139lrx shoot well in that gun if I cleaned to bare metal first? Maybe, haven't tried.

Point is, I can find combinations that are accurate enough for hunting purposes to suit my needs without cleaning.

Sadly I can't shoot at home otherwise I'd be more inclined to test this concept:
Clean to bare bore: shoot 10-20rd group of say eldm
Clean to bare bore: shoot 10-20rd group of some mono
Then back and forth shoot 10-20rd groups alternating one eldm and then one mono on their respective targets.

Even if doing that testing one mono (barnes for instance) would it vary with compared to others based on alloys and also rifling contact. Barnes engage the rifling more than hammers which are more than the bore rider cutting edge lazer. Does bore condition factor in?

Lotta variables. Long story short its not an absolute that you will definitely have to clean if switching to have hunting accuracy.

 

[hickswr]

Shoot a whitetail with a light for caliber Hammer bullet as fast as you can push it, and report back.

You won’t be disappointed and will forget Barnes ever made bullets for whitetail hunting!

I’ve also been less than impressed with Barnes on whitetails. Hammers kill like a ballistic tip minus the bloodshot meat.

 

[tradman]

Has anyone actually tested what the actual speed is at 1000yds. Literally setting a chrono up at 1000 to get the actual speed of the projectile. That would be interesting to see.

 

[nm.otter]

That sort of a thing was a regular part of bullet development before Doppler radar became the norm.

 

[SDHNTR]

I shoot monos exclusively. Mostly Barnes and Hammers. This is all obsessing over nothing. Put one through the chest cavity at reasonable ranges (not 1000 yds) and stuff dies easily. There’s not much more to it. Know the max terminal velocity and stay within range.

I don’t understand the frangible argument. I like to eat the things I shoot.

 

[Tmac]

With that, are the "newer monnos" like the LRX, CX, etc worth using or keep using the ELDMs? What has been your experience?

My answer to your question is yes. We’ve had excellent results with the 130 TTSX out of a 270 Win at an average MV of 3,050 and a 145 LRX out of a 280 Rem at 3,013 fps. Fairly quick kills and modest meat damage. A number of Deer & Elk and a Moose the last 10 ish years. All exited but the 130 TTSX on the Moose. All under 350yards, most under 200.

I prefer mono’s for openish country meat hunts to moderate range, 400 and in. The 280 gives the LRX enough speed to be viable to 600 ish. For my grandkids and/or W OR brushy type hunts, we strongly prefer a more fragile heavy for caliber bullet to up the odds of a bang flop.

So depending on the hunt goals I am all over the place. Different guns like different bullets and hunt goals often differ. So embrace diversity in bullets too is how we roll.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I shoot monos exclusively. Mostly Barnes and Hammers. This is all obsessing over nothing. Put one through the chest cavity at reasonable ranges (not 1000 yds) and stuff dies easily. There’s not much more to it. Know the max terminal velocity and stay within range.

I don’t understand the frangible argument. I like to eat the things I shoot.

Frangible offers margin for error on shot placement, it terms of width of trauma, I understand it fine. A shot a bit back in the liver for instance with an ELDM is likely going to thrash the liver and get lungs (and probably some stomach too) which would likely die faster than a mono punching a narrower wound through the liver.

An eldm through the ribs into the lungs avoiding the shoulders completely will limit meat loss and quickly kill something. Its not inherent frangible destroys lots of meat.

Putting an ELDM squarely through both shoulder will likely destroy notably more meat.