Convince me to shoot monolithics again

[Leaf Litter]

@Leaf Litter my AB using barnes published velocity for that load (155gr at 2960fps) has it below 1500fps at 1000 yards. Maybe you are handloading and getting considerably more velocity, but it's at 1449fps in my AB at 1k. At a DA of 5k feet it is at 1636fps. Still iffy if you ask me, but yes, it is not superhuman--but still requires a magnum cartridge and even at that it's right down there even at Barnes's minimum recommended velocity. Again, TONS of folks consider that too low in reality to achieve the type of expansion people expect. So while I may be pushing too hard on this, I dont think I'm off base to say that if extreme long range hunting is your thing (and I would 100% argue that 1000 yards IS "extreme long range" where hunting is concerned), an LRX is not the best choice even if it might work with a more "standard magnum" cartridge like the 6.8W.

So you changed the bullet and inserted paltry velocity to suit your argument. Spare me your prattle.

 

[ElPollo]

I'm not sure what section this needs to be in and figured this would be the best place.

Lately I have a friend thats been hammering elk with the Barnes LRX bullet. So far, last month, his rifle has accounted for 11 elk.(clients/friends have used his rifle) with the longest shot being just past 1,000 yards (yes when he says 1000, the man means it). The results, he has seen on the elk and the rams this year has impressed him and that is coming from a die hard berger fan.

On the flip side, my experience on whitetails has been lack luster. Here's an example.
The top picture was a .308 caliber bullet, 110 grain TAC-TX (meant for lower velocity expansion) on a southern whitetail. This was a normal, behind the shoulder textbook shot, so no major bone encountered aside from maybe a rib. This has been my experience with normal monolithic bullets (muzzleloader monos seem to work extremely well though). The permanent wound cavity in this situation was about the size of my thumb.

The bottom pictures is a .264 caliber bullet, 123 grain ELDM on a southern whitetail. Again this was a normal textbook shot, no major bone encountered, directly behind the shoulder. Impact velocity around 2200 fps.

Even though the 30 cal bullet hit going roughly 100 fps faster, and had a bigger frontal diameter going through the animal, the ELDM resulted in a bigger permanent wound cavity (which is expected).

I'm not a dude that purposely shoots animals through the shoulder. I'm a lung shooter and out of the 150+ (stopped counting) whitetails I've killed, the ELDMs, SSTs, and the Winchester XP has resulted on average, the quickest deaths, while monolithics (mainly Barnes) has resulted in the longest tracking jobs. With that, are the "newer monnos" like the LRX, CX, etc worth using or keep using the ELDMs? What has been your experience?

@Macintosh hit on this already, but monos on game at 1000 yards is just silly. Most of the Barnes stuff needs to be 2100-2200 to open enough to give a reasonable wound channel. The CX is a piece of crap in terms of accuracy and wound creation. There is no reason to use copper monos unless you are required to. Now, the DRT bullet have some potential and seem to act about like a Berger. They are just a bit harder to source. That said, non-lead isn’t worth it unless it’s required by law.

 

[TaperPin]

The traditional mono that holds together is rather underwhelming on game, that hasn’t changed since the 1980’s. If I had to hunt with only that style of mono I’d go up a few notches in caliber to have a larger expanded bullet on target and push them as fast as possible. Hammer and the others that break into a handful of pieces do seem worth exploring, especially since someone figured out putting grooves in a mono helps it shoot well in a wider variety of guns. About every decade I go all in on monos, get frustrated with poor accuracy and performance on game and put them aside for another decade hoping someone fixes the short comings. I’m due for another try and I’ll be experimenting with a wide variety of Hammers this coming year.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

What else would do it?

Off hand probably the 160gr lrx in 7prc I would expect. The BC on that is something like .6 g1 (I forget the g7 off hand).

I know my 19" 284win is pushing the 160gr lazer and 162gr eld at ~1750fps at 1000yd at 7000' altitude still, those have a lil more BC than the barnes 160gr lrx but not massively different. A 7prc esp. with a barrel longer than 19" is gonna add on a respectable amount of velocity. The acknowledgement goes to that 160gr lrx being a higher than normal BC for barnes, no idea how well it does or doesn't actually perform.

 

[Macintosh]

So you changed the bullet and inserted paltry velocity to suit your argument. Spare me your prattle.

Sorry if that hit you wrong, but chill, this isnt a measuring contest. I used your example of a 6.8w using the only load for that combo (6.8w with LRX)that barnes offers, and admitted I was wrong because on paper it DOES achieve their published minimum velocity (1600fps) at your DA (although not at mine), and added the caveat that I still think its iffy, and not what I think anyone would use as an example to convince the OP to use a mono again. If that counts as "prattle" to you then we can move on.

 

[Brandon_SPC]

Are you comparing elk kills to whitetail kills?

Impact velocity of the Barnes was?

I thought I had that added. My apoliges, it was 2300 fps give or take 10 fps.

 

[S-3 ranch]

I love Barnes ttsx and lrx , and hate eldx & eldm , but there are many happy mediums between them that are proven true killers
So I would prefer to not try to convince you of anything

 

[North of 60]

It may depend upon how much you need a blood trail...in open country where it is easy to see game, go cup and core. In places where a blood trail is preferable, i would go mono and there are more choices than Barnes,

Cavity back and Maker are examples of wider petal monos than Barnes, and Hammer or CE make fragmenting copper.

 

[Brandon_SPC]

I edited the main post.

 

[Brandon_SPC]

It may depend upon how much you need a blood trail...in open country where it is easy to see game, go cup and core. In places where a blood trail is preferable, i would go mono and there are more choices than Barnes,

Cavity back and Maker are examples of wider petal monos than Barnes, and Hammer or CE make fragmenting copper.

Most of the animals I have taken, has been thick timber or thick southern gallberry/planted pine terrain. Generally by the time you find said impact location, you have already found the animal. At least when I use cup and cores. That's why I didn't care for the monos. If there was a lack of blood, they still on average covered 80-100 yards vs the cup and cores that was either DRT or they would stumble that 10-30 yards.

But I do have some cavitybacks I am trying this year just to compare them to the ELDMs.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

There is no reason to use copper monos unless you are required to.

AND this statement (you and other say it) is also annoying. There are definitely reasons to choose to shoot monos if you want to, just deploy them correctly / with the correct expectations.

Absolute statements are typically foolish statements.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

The traditional mono that holds together is rather underwhelming on game, that hasn’t changed since the 1980’s. If I had to hunt with only that style of mono I’d go up a few notches in caliber to have a larger expanded bullet on target and push them as fast as possible. Hammer and the others that break into a handful of pieces do seem worth exploring, especially since someone figured out putting grooves in a mono helps it shoot well in a wider variety of guns. About every decade I go all in on monos, get frustrated with poor accuracy and performance on game and put them aside for another decade hoping someone fixes the short comings. I’m due for another try and I’ll be experimenting with a wide variety of Hammers this coming year.

If you shoot 7mm try out the 141hbc and report back. Curious about that one.

 

[Brandon_SPC]

What cartridge and LRX bullet retains even 1600 fps at 1000 yards?

No one can “convince” you of much. The bullets are different, designed to do different things. Monos are designed to retain 100% mass, as you pointed out they create a small wound unless bone fragments acting as fragments amplify the wound channel. Fragmenting bullets like the eldm and sst’s you mentioned come apart and the fragments cause a much larger wound channel. Both need to be above a threshhold expansion velocity, which is usually higher for monos. Monos lose velocity faster as well and terminal range is compromised as a result. Wind doesnt help. So when I hear of people claiming 1000 yards with a mono and great performance, regardless of who it is I call BS and say “show me details (cartridge, bullet, impact velocity) and photos of the animal, the wound and the recovered bullet” because I think it likely that range was either much shorter or the bullet penciled and was simply a good shot and any bullet would have worked.

The question is what kind of wound do you want, and what bullet will provide that, at the range you need? THAT is the “better” bullet imo. For me that IS a mono, but at 1000 yards hell no its not a mono. In reality I have no business shooting critters at 1000 yards but it aint gonna be a mono I reach for at that range.

I think you summed up what my initial thoughts were but you know sometimes you need the reassurance.

 

[hibernation]

I've had variable results over the last year with the 127 LRX from an 18" 6.5 CM, impact velocities ~2200-2500. One broadside shot impacted a deer rib on entry and blew a serious hole through the lungs, another clipped the trailing edge of the shoulderblade on a quartering-to shot and did similar damage. First one made it ~40 yards and crashed, second one dropped pretty much in place. Another shot missed ribs on entry and only went through soft tissue (lung and liver), made a very narrow wound channel and the elk made a ~100yd run, collapsed, but got back up as I approached and needed a second shot as it was trying to leave.

I shot the TTSX for years prior to this and had pretty similar results. High-speed broadhead describes it pretty accurately. They work with good shot placement, but they definitely don't drop animals as quickly as some other bullets unless you break bone or hit spine. A clean double-lung shot with a Barnes, IME, has the animal bounding off and dying in reasonably short order about the same as I would expect when bowhunting.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Most of the animals I have taken, has been thick timber or thick southern gallberry/planted pine terrain. Generally by the time you find said impact location, you have already found the animal. At least when I use cup and cores. That's why I didn't care for the monos. If there was a lack of blood, they still on average covered 80-100 yards vs the cup and cores that was either DRT or they would stumble that 10-30 yards.

But I do have some cavitybacks I am trying this year just to compare them to the ELDMs.

Beating a dead horse but if you're in thick timber and using a mono shoot the heart, even if you have to pass through shoulder(s) muscle it doesn't destroy a shoulders. Slight quartering away so you can enter behind the shoulder on track for the heart is a solid option imho.

 

[Brandon_SPC]

As someone who by choice hunted only monos for over a decade and still often uses monos this type of question is frankly annoying.

You want non-mono performance from a mono, sorry no. Monos aren't for someone who primarily is a "lung shooter" yet expects fragmenting lead core effects. Monos are best thought of as a high speed broadhead (that can go through bone also), if you put an arrow through the lungs of an elk would you expect a different result than a fragmenting lead bullet? Yes most likely, recalibrate your expectations and deployment if you want to shoot monos.


That repetitive caveat aside. Barnes are petal pealers so high speed broad head is most apt. Whether that is the LRX, TTSX (or other brands like the CX, etc.) Other monos are petal shedders and can create a more explosive wound via the petals radiating out and cutting tissue too and secondary wound channels BUT IT WILL NOT BE LIKE A ELDM EVER.

I've shot a lot of things with barnes lrx/ttsx at 2200+ fps impacts (imho avoid barnes "minimum expansion" by a few hundred feet per second unless you want small wounds) and I shot for heart/aerterial bundle (NOT LUNGS) and everything died quickly when shot in that manner.

I've been trying the 7mm 160gr cutting edge lazer this year, tried just behind the shoulder on a doe deer and got a broadhead wound through the lungs, it ran <100yd with a good blood trail and died. I didn't study where the petals wounded on it. I've had mixes results with the non-tipped hammer bullets but I'd give their tipped ones a try.

No experience with the apex or mcquire.

That wasn't my request at all. This post was more of a "Clear the air on what I am missing". I have very limited experience with monos. I only shot a thor (killed an elk with it), Maker (killed a sambar deer with one), and used Barnes on whitetails a handful of times and just stopped because I got tired of tracking on standard double lung hits. But if someone is making a claim, before I tried something out, I want to hear from others individual experience and thoughts on the matter. I do appreciate your feedback.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

A clean double-lung shot with a Barnes, IME, has the animal bounding off and dying in reasonably short order about the same as I would expect when bowhunting.

bingo, that is the correctly calibrated expectation for a barnes shot though the lungs. The user needs to ask themselves if that is suitable for their use case or not, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Just stop expecting the bullet to act differently, different designs do different things.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

That wasn't my request at all. This post was more of a "Clear the air on what I am missing". I have very limited experience with monos. I only shot a thor (killed an elk with it), Maker (killed a sambar deer with one), and used Barnes on whitetails a handful of times and just stopped because I got tired of tracking on standard double lung hits. But if someone is making a claim, before I tried something out, I want to hear from others individual experience and thoughts on the matter. I do appreciate your feedback.

It happens over and over so sorry if I'm a little quick on the keyboard with my response tone. What I keyed in on is you want to shoot lungs and you didn't get eldm like performance from a barnes though the lungs.

Not sure why you would have expected it but plenty seem to.

If you think about a barnes like a high speed broadhead does that recalibrate your expectations?

 

[hibernation]

bingo, that is the correctly calibrated expectation for a barnes shot though the lungs. The user needs to ask themselves if that is suitable for their use case or not, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Just stop expecting the bullet to act differently, different designs do different things.

I've only ever used factory Barnes monos, are any of the others you've used substantially different? Cutting edge, hammers, etc.

Do those bullets feel like a step up in terminal performance, in terms of distance traveled? Or similar enough that I might not even notice?

 

[Brandon_SPC]

It happens over and over so sorry if I'm a little quick on the keyboard with my response tone. What I keyed in on is you want to shoot lungs and you didn't get eldm like performance from a barnes though the lungs.

Not sure why you would have expected it but plenty seem to.

If you think about a barnes like a high speed broadhead does that recalibrate your expectations?

No harm no foul man, sometimes it is hard to understand tone through text.I'm not expecting the bullet to act differently but aside from the thor I used on my bull elk this year, I haven't used a mono since 2022. This post was mainly as a "reassurance" post I guess. I keep wanting to try monos on small cartridges when I go elk hunting. Especially since most shots are under 100 yards but I still have reservation there too.