Convince me to shoot monolithics again

[Brandon_SPC]

I'm not sure what section this needs to be in and figured this would be the best place.

Lately I have a friend thats been hammering elk with the Barnes LRX bullet. So far, last month, his rifle has accounted for 11 elk.(clients/friends have used his rifle) with the longest shot being just past 1,000 yards (yes when he says 1000, the man means it). The results, he has seen on the elk and the rams this year has impressed him and that is coming from a die hard berger fan.

On the flip side, my experience on whitetails has been lack luster. Here's an example.
The top picture was a .308 caliber bullet, 110 grain TAC-TX (meant for lower velocity expansion) on a southern whitetail. Impact velocity was 2300 fps. This was a normal, behind the shoulder textbook shot, so no major bone encountered aside from maybe a rib. This has been my experience with normal monolithic bullets (muzzleloader monos seem to work extremely well though). The permanent wound cavity in this situation was about the size of my thumb.

The bottom pictures is a .264 caliber bullet, 123 grain ELDM on a southern whitetail. Again this was a normal textbook shot, no major bone encountered, directly behind the shoulder. Impact velocity around 2200 fps.

Even though the 30 cal bullet hit going roughly 100 fps faster, and had a bigger frontal diameter going through the animal, the ELDM resulted in a bigger permanent wound cavity (which is expected).

I'm not a dude that purposely shoots animals through the shoulder. I'm a lung shooter and out of the 150+ (stopped counting) whitetails I've killed, the ELDMs, SSTs, and the Winchester XP has resulted on average, the quickest deaths, while monolithics (mainly Barnes) has resulted in the longest tracking jobs. With that, are the "newer monnos" like the LRX, CX, etc worth using or keep using the ELDMs? What has been your experience?

 

[Soj51hopeful]

Are you comparing elk kills to whitetail kills?

 

[LCV]

Monos are for shoulder shooting whitetails without ruining much meat, so you can avoid fishing them out of a swamp.

 

[rickyw]

Impact velocity of the Barnes was?

 

[Schmo]

I'm not a dude that purposely shoots animals through the shoulder. I'm a lung shooter and out of the 150+ (stopped counting) whitetails I've killed, the ELDMs, SSTs, and the Winchester XP has resulted on average, the quickest deaths, while monolithics (mainly Barnes) has resulted in the longest tracking jobs. With that, are the "newer monnos" like the LRX, CX, etc worth using or keep using the ELDMs? What has been your experience?

The LRX, CX, etc are not going to kill any better than similar bullets did 10 years. For the vast majority, ELDs, TMKs, and Bergers are going to give the fastest time to incapacitation

 

[Macintosh]

What cartridge and LRX bullet retains even 1600 fps at 1000 yards?

No one can “convince” you of much. The bullets are different, designed to do different things. Monos are designed to retain 100% mass, as you pointed out they create a small wound unless bone fragments acting as fragments amplify the wound channel. Fragmenting bullets like the eldm and sst’s you mentioned come apart and the fragments cause a much larger wound channel. Both need to be above a threshhold expansion velocity, which is usually higher for monos. Monos lose velocity faster as well and terminal range is compromised as a result. Wind doesnt help. So when I hear of people claiming 1000 yards with a mono and great performance, regardless of who it is I call BS and say “show me details (cartridge, bullet, impact velocity) and photos of the animal, the wound and the recovered bullet” because I think it likely that range was either much shorter or the bullet penciled and was simply a good shot and any bullet would have worked.

The question is what kind of wound do you want, and what bullet will provide that, at the range you need? THAT is the “better” bullet imo. For me that IS a mono, but at 1000 yards hell no its not a mono. In reality I have no business shooting critters at 1000 yards but it aint gonna be a mono I reach for at that range.

 

[Schmo]

What cartridge and LRX bullet retains even 1600 fps at 1000 yards?

No one can “convince” you of much. The bullets are different, designed to do different things. Monos are designed to retain 100% mass, as you pointed out they create a small wound unless bone fragments acting as fragments amplify the wound channel. Fragmenting bullets like the eldm and sst’s you mentioned come apart and the fragments cause a much larger wound channel. Both need to be above a threshhold expansion velocity, which is usually higher for monos. Monos lose velocity faster as well and terminal range is compromised as a result. Wind doesnt help. So when I hear of people claiming 1000 yards with a mono and great performance, regardless of who it is I call BS and say “show me details (cartridge, bullet, impact velocity) and photos of the animal, the wound and the recovered bullet” because I think it likely that range was either much shorter or the bullet penciled and was simply a good shot and any bullet would have worked.

The question is what kind of wound do you want, and what bullet will provide that, at the range you need? THAT is the “better” bullet imo. For me that IS a mono, but at 1000 yards hell no its not a mono. In reality I have no business shooting critters at 1000 yards but it aint gonna be a mono I reach for at that range.

I don’t care for monos much, but a heavy LRX out of some rifles should reach 1,000 I believe.

The 212 .30 cal Bore rider has a G1 of .705.

 

[sierracharlie338]

No I won’t…….




The trade offs aren’t worth the squeeze unless you are forced to shoot them by local laws imo.

 

[Chris in TN]

Ehh, sorry, can't do it.

 

[z987k]

Apex or maker for high performing monos. Apex has the bc to get a 300prc to 1000. But i still wouldnt.

 

[Macintosh]

I don’t care for monos much, but a heavy LRX out of some rifles should reach 1,000 I believe.

The 212 .30 cal Bore rider has a G1 of .705.

Great, so our guide friend has his clients shooting a 212gr bullet at 3000+fps (300 rum, etc???) at 1000 yards? Ok, maybe that works. looks like it takes 3000fps to keep that 212gr bullet above 1800fps at 1000. Not sure it isnt using a sledgehammer to drive a finish nail though. Seems like if that feat REQUIRES something with on the order of 40+ foot-lb of recoil it may not be “better”. But maybe thats just me.

 

[Schmo]

Great, so our guide friend has his clients shooting a 212gr bullet at 3000+fps (300 rum, etc???) at 1000 yards? Ok, maybe that works. Barnes loaded ammo doesnt make that look likely, but maybe. Not sure it isnt using a sledgehammer to drive a finish nail though. Seems like if that feat REQUIRES something with on the order of 40+ foot-lb of recoil it may not be “better”. But maybe thats just me.

I didn’t say that’s what was happening, and I really hope it wasn’t. Just throwing out a possibility?

 

[Macintosh]

What else would do it? in my AB plugging in that bullet at 3000fps, it's at 1769fps at 1000 yards. So it does work on paper, and that's at relatively low elevation even. Still, not many cartridges will do that, so I think it has to take something on that order to accomplish it?

 

[Matt5266]

Simply No

 

[Schmo]

What else would do it? in my AB plugging in that bullet at 3000fps, it's at 1769fps at 1000 yards. So it does work, and that's at relatively low elevation even. Still, not many cartridges will do that, so I think it has to take something on that order to accomplish it?

Yeah, unless you don’t care about minimum velocity!

 

[Leaf Litter]

Great, so our guide friend has his clients shooting a 212gr bullet at 3000+fps (300 rum, etc???) at 1000 yards? Ok, maybe that works. Barnes loaded ammo doesnt make that look likely, but maybe. Not sure it isnt using a sledgehammer to drive a finish nail though. Seems like if that feat REQUIRES something with on the order of 40+ foot-lb of recoil it may not be “better”. But maybe thats just me.

A 6.8 Western will push a 129 LRX to 1k yards easily at 5,000 feet elevation or higher while retaining expansion velocity. It's not the incredible feat that you make it out to be, limited to insane recoiling ultra magnum cartridges.

I don't shoot animals at that irresponsible distance, but it's very possible.

 

[Macintosh]

@Schmo sure, there's that. But even with Barnes' overly optimistic (imo) minimum velocities, even they wouldnt recommend pushing much past that. And we're supposed to convince our dude here that this is "better"? There's a whole lotta 'NOPE" going on here if you ask me!

 

[cubdriver84d]

If you're looking for a lead free alternative to ELDM and similar then the DRT Terminal Shock is what you want. Not really a "mono" though.

 

[Macintosh]

@Leaf Litter my AB using barnes published velocity for that load (155gr at 2960fps) has it below 1500fps at 1000 yards. Maybe you are handloading and getting considerably more velocity, but it's at 1449fps in my AB at 1k. At a DA of 5k feet it is at 1636fps. Still iffy if you ask me, but yes, it is not superhuman--but still requires a magnum cartridge and even at that it's right down there even at Barnes's minimum recommended velocity. Again, TONS of folks consider that too low in reality to achieve the type of expansion people expect. So while I may be pushing too hard on this, I dont think I'm off base to say that if extreme long range hunting is your thing (and I would 100% argue that 1000 yards IS "extreme long range" where hunting is concerned), an LRX is not the best choice even if it might work with a more "standard magnum" cartridge like the 6.8W.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

As someone who by choice hunted only monos for over a decade and still often uses monos this type of question is frankly annoying.

You want non-mono performance from a mono, sorry no. Monos aren't for someone who primarily is a "lung shooter" yet expects fragmenting lead core effects. Monos are best thought of as a high speed broadhead (that can go through bone also), if you put an arrow through the lungs of an elk would you expect a different result than a fragmenting lead bullet? Yes most likely, recalibrate your expectations and deployment if you want to shoot monos.


That repetitive caveat aside. Barnes are petal pealers so high speed broad head is most apt. Whether that is the LRX, TTSX (or other brands like the CX, etc.) Other monos are petal shedders and can create a more explosive wound via the petals radiating out and cutting tissue too and secondary wound channels BUT IT WILL NOT BE LIKE A ELDM EVER.

I've shot a lot of things with barnes lrx/ttsx at 2200+ fps impacts (imho avoid barnes "minimum expansion" by a few hundred feet per second unless you want small wounds) and I shot for heart/aerterial bundle (NOT LUNGS) and everything died quickly when shot in that manner.

I've been trying the 7mm 160gr cutting edge lazer this year, tried just behind the shoulder on a doe deer and got a broadhead wound through the lungs, it ran <100yd with a good blood trail and died. I didn't study where the petals wounded on it. I've had mixes results with the non-tipped hammer bullets but I'd give their tipped ones a try.

No experience with the apex or mcquire.