Considering downsizing to 6 cm from 7 PRC

[hereinaz]

I think the bipod vs tripod thing is very terrain determinant. Some areas a tripod would be tough to get setup and shoot from without being seen while other areas a bipod is too low or there is no place to get flat and see the game. Both are excellent tools but neither is perfect. Just like every other thing we argue about on here. Bullets, cartridges, rifles, scopes, slings, and every other object is a compromise between two extremes.

Jay

Yup. Wish more people understood and read that nuance into it or assumed there were other variables that matter to the decision. Cost benefit analysis, everything is grey...

I would prefer a bipod for the times I can go prone, but I have to compromise and shoot off my pack or tripod to avoid the weight. Because, most of my shots I am able to get into position without disturbing game.

I am going smaller caliber and shorter barrels, but I will always have a 26” long barrel 7 mag of some sort available…

 

[Article 4]

@Article 4 , can you explain which details of the paper you cite above support the arguments you are making relative to the additional margin of error gained through increased caliber?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S175161611630412X

I haven’t bought the paper, but the abstract and introduction that are free appear to me to be more concerned with how one models ballistics gel rather than comparison of caliber, bullet construction, or relative incapacitation speed on living animals. The experimental section snippet only mentions 7.62x39 ball ammo, if the paper provides further inside into performance of match or hunting bullets, I’m all ears.

The article is about how ballistic gel is the best "real life" comparator to mammalian bodies. It was proposed that using gel was not a good comparator. This shows it is the best one we have.

 

[Cactus kid]

Form summed it up pretty well. I would trade ballistic performance for shootability every time now. I think the 22 or 6mm creed is the answer for pretty much everything.

These were all 22 creedmoor 88 eldm kills from this year. They work good.
View attachment 806414View attachment 806415View attachment 806419View attachment 806421View attachment 806422View attachment 806420

Hard to argue with that.

What is the average distance these critters went after getting shot? where all these one shot, one kills?

 

[Article 4]

I’ve tried to have good faith conversations with you in the past that involved scientific papers on the matter. None of the papers you provided came to the same conclusions you do about pressure waves as it relates to terminal ballistics.

As such, don’t be surprised that your reputation proceeds you as a fudd and incapable of having a thoughtful conversation.

The papers I shared, my experience, and my thoughts are supported by:

• 400 years of newtonian physics
• Papers by Brian Litz - chief ballisticians at Berger
• Papers by Jayden Quinlan - chief ballisticians at Hornady
• Will McDonald at Sierra Bullets
• Nolser
• Norma
• The US Military
• Scientist in Energy research, materials science and plasma physics
• The US National Labs

But I guess you and Form know better.

Fudd? Oh no, how will I ever sleep at night knowing you think I am a Fudd? Yikes...That is always a way to have a good faith conversation for sure!

With that, I consider the matter closed. Cheers!

 

[littlebigtine]

Demonstrably better on average off a flat range.

Why aren’t PRS matches dominated by large 7mm and 30cal magnums? Why isn’t NRL hunter?







There are lots of variables, however with enough random data, those variables average out. A lot of trends can be stated with more than 30 random people and 40,000+ rounds. And, that has been happening for over a decade.





I don’t “think” anything. Results in the field are what I pay attention to. Everything shows that less gun movement, less muzzle blast, and less recoil results in fewer screw ups on animals… and quicker recovery from the screws ups when they do happen. More gun movement, more muzzle blast, and more recoil does not help anyone hit things more. The more you deviate from perfect flat range conditions, the more that shows up.





Yes- nearly everyone (who believes themselves to be long range competent) shoots extremely poorly in the beginning. And yes, they get massively better in 5 days. However- those same shooters hit more targets at the start of the course with smaller cartridges- and more targets at the end of the course with smaller cartridges.





No- I said that one person was competitive with a 6.5PRC with others shooting 22cals- and that same person hits better with a 22CM than he does a 6.5 PRC. I can shoot unbraked 8lb 30cal magnums with higher on demand hits than the vast majority of people can with any gun- but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a performance cost to my ability when I do so.





? Correct. More gun movement, more muzzle blast, and more recoil do not help people kill more animals in the vast majority of hunting situations that the vast majority of hunters are in. Does a .8 G1 BC bullet at 3,000fps MV have better external ballistics than a .4 bc bullet at 3,000fps MV? Of course. However there is a price for that performance, and the price is shootability. If there weren’t that price- then all PRS and NRL matches would be won using large 7mm and 30cal cartridges. The reality is that in PRS people through evidence in scores, shoot the lowest recoil cartridge that will consistently show enough splash on shot up steel plates to get calls from the spotter. In NRL- they made it so that 6mm and below couldn’t be used- because everyone would be using them.





You believe that anything being written is accepted uncritically? Giving results and data is about as objective and “critical” as can be given. Not once have I said “I like”, “I think”, or “I feel”.





You can be critical of anything you want- however, I’m not seeing where you are giving any critical feedback. You are not refuting any of the data with your own, and you aren’t really asking clarifying questions. You were given what is probably the largest source of data about this specific subject that exists (and only from a single year), that is also corroborated by every competition that in someway tries to mimic similar shots, ranges, setups.

There certainly are very specific scenarios and setups where large 7mm and 30cals perform fantastically- pure ambush hunting from the prone, at completely clueless animals, using a 13+ pound braked rifle… sure. However- that is not the vast majority of hunters, and even of those that do so- by being so specialized, they are missing opportunities even if they don’t realize it.

I see your points and the fact that almost all of prs uses 6mm is definitely convincing.
Im really not trying to argue with you so I hope that is not how you interpret my comments. I was just bringing up what I thought were valid concerns/criticisms.
Ive seen on average 3-5 animals die by rifle for the last 6 years
I shoot no more than 1200 rounds of ammo annually.
Ive never lost an animal but It sounds like im due shooting a 7 rem mag.
Naturally ive gone down this smaller caliber rabbit hole being apart of rokslide and that im in the market for a new rifle.
I just a normal guy trying to think for myself and ask questions.
Thanks for your time

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Hard to argue with that.

What is the average distance these critters went after getting shot? where all these one shot, one kills?

As another set to what Dioni may have… Herr is my personal kill list from Sept 2024 to Dec 2024 shooting all with 22 Creedmoor and 80 ELDX. I gathered the data this year to be able to share with anyone interested.

I have necropsy photos of all the kills and have shared them in the .223 thread and the “22 Creedmoor thread”.


1. Bull Moose: Yardage: 523. Impact Velocity: 2,180. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: What most would call "high shoulder". Distance Traveled After Shot:20-30 feet.

2. Black Bear Boar: Yardage: 110-130 (never ranged). Impact Velocity: 2,900ish. Shot Position: Standing Supported. Impact Location: Mid Body Distance Traveled After Shot: 80-90 yards full sprint before collapsing.

3. Mule Deer Buck: Yardage: 636. Impact Velocity: 2,150. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location: High Brisket. Distance Travelled After Shot: 180-220 yards tumbling/rolling downhill.

4. Coues Deer Buck (Different Shooter): Yardage: 212. Impact Velocity: 2,720. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 1st Shot Neck. Ran 40-60 yards and stumbled but stayed up. 2nd shot broke as it started jogging forward again, impacted rear quarter. Deer dropped and died. Distance Travelled After Shot: 40-60 Yards.

5. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 203. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 4th Rib Bone. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

6. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 40-50 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,050. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Between 4th and 5th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

7. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 404. Impact Velocity: 2,390. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location:Scapula. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

8. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 20-30 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,070. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Quartering Away, 5th and 6th ribs. Distance Traveled After Shot: 110-130 Yards.

9. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 272. Impact Velocity: 2,610. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location:Between 3rd and 4th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 120-140 yards.

10. Whitetail Doe (Different Shooter): Yardage: 208. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Kneeling Supported. Impact Location: Forward-Facing Neck (head up smelling us). Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

11. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 510. Impact Velocity: 2,225. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: 1 Shot, 5th Rib. Deer ran 60-80 yards and stopped. 2nd Shot, Scapula. Dropped. Distance Traveled After Shot: 60-80 Yards.

12. Whitetail Buck: Yardage 232. Impact Velocity:2,730ish. Shot Position: Standing, supported by tree branch. Impact Location: 3rd Rib. Distance Traveled After Shot: 5-10
Yards.

13. Bull Elk: Yardage: 120ish (never ranged). Impact Velocity: 2,920ish. Shot Position: Kneeling Unsupported. Impact Location:High on the 5th Rib Bone. Exited 5th Rib Bone. Bullet lodged in offside fat/hide. Massive fragmentation, damaged spine, damaged lung, heart was chunked up mess. Distance Travelled After Shot: 0 Yards. Paralyzed. Heavy and labored breathing for around 90 seconds.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

The papers I shared, my experience, and my thoughts are supported by:

• 400 years of newtonian physics
• Papers by Brian Litz - chief ballisticians at Berger
• Papers by Jayden Quinlan - chief ballisticians at Hornady
• Will McDonald at Sierra Bullets
• Nolser
• Norma
• The US Military
• Scientist in Energy research, materials science and plasma physics
• The US National Labs

But I guess you and Form know better.

Fudd? That is always a way to have a good faith conversation for sure!
Your opinion on my reputation is inconsequential.

With that, I consider the matter closed. Cheers!

You forgot to put Chris Kyle in your list of “supporters”.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Exactly my point - adding to that and OP post with 6 and 7mm bullets - all other things the same, the larger the bullet - the larger the hole, the more energy, and the more of everything to decrease incapacitation time (death)

If that was your only point not many would disagree with it.

 

[Article 4]

The fragments from a fragmenting bullet damages more tissue compared to a non-fragmenting bullet. The magnitude of the ballistic pressure wave is a separate variable, which I’ve seen no scientific literature on as it relates to incapacitation times.

In more scientific terms, fragmenting bullets conduct more Work in the system than non-fragmenting bullets.

Help me understand why when they are acting on the tissue and animal at the exact same time - they are a separate issue?

 

[Article 4]

You forgot to put Chris Kyle in your list of “supporters”.

Dang it, thanks for reminding me.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

The papers I shared, my experience, and my thoughts are supported by:

• 400 years of newtonian physics
• Papers by Brian Litz - chief ballisticians at Berger
• Papers by Jayden Quinlan - chief ballisticians at Hornady
• Will McDonald at Sierra Bullets
• Nolser
• Norma
• The US Military
• Scientist in Energy research, materials science and plasma physics
• The US National Labs

But I guess you and Form know better.

Fudd? Oh no, how will I ever sleep at night knowing you think I am a Fudd? Yikes...That is always a way to have a good faith conversation for sure!

With that, I consider the matter closed. Cheers!

You cherry pick and misrepresent data from most of those bullet points, and then leave out the FBI ballistic research (who have been the leaders in ballistics research for decades now) because their conclusions don’t mirror your own.

 

[Article 4]

If that was your only point not many would disagree with it.

Appreciate it. I do my absolute best to provide opinion based on well researched and personal experience. Not everyone has to agree with it and thats ok

 

[Article 4]

You cherry pick and misrepresent data from most of those bullet points, and then leave out the FBI ballistic research (who have been the leaders in ballistics research for decades now) because their conclusions don’t mirror your own.

So that means the data I showed is false?

Show me the FBI data - happy to read it

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Help me understand why when they are acting on the tissue and animal at the exact same time - they are a separate issue?

If you knew science like you claim too, you might understand that there are many different types of energy in a system equation. The ballistic pressure waves are more relevant than say heat energy, but until someone can prove ballistics pressure waves have a measurable effect on incapacitation ( they’ve tried several times) it’ll be a separate issue.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Some of you remind me a lot of myself….

First it was “I only use 7mm and 30 Cal on large animals”. 2014 season came and the animals died just the same with my 6.5 and 6mm guns. 10 years later they are still killing.

Then it was “I won’t use anything smaller than 6mm on large game”. 2024 season comes around and 13 big game animals died just the same to .224 bullets.

Instead of arguing here why not go out and actually try it though? And do so in meaningingful enough data sets before you form an “opinion”would be my suggestion.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

So that means the data I showed is false?

Show me the FBI data - happy to read it

Outdated is likely a better word.

It won’t be today but I’ll get back to you with a link or two

 

[Axlrod]

I did misread it. Ok - but the statement is still wrong.

So tell me then. When a grenade goes off inside a close space (berger inside an animal) and it drops dead on the spot - which by the way is the exact reason Berger builds bullets that way, how does that NOT decrease incapacitation time to zero? Versus a bullet that goes all the way through and the animal runs 100 yards for 10 seconds to die and then isnt fully dead for some minutes later once it does?

I am curious about where you found that Berger "builds bullets that way". The only thing I have ever seen from Berger was(is) posted on their website. They stated that their current hunting bullets were originally their target bullets. They changed the name on the box to hunting, after receiving field reports of success from hunters using their target bullets for hunting.

That and most of their current target bullets work mostly the same as their hunting bullets. I may be totally wrong, but I don't think they have done any hunting bullet design or testing. I think they stumbled upon something that works well, by some kind of happy accident.

 

[Cactus kid]

As another set to what Dioni may have… Herr is my personal kill list from Sept 2024 to Dec 2024 shooting all with 22 Creedmoor and 80 ELDX. I gathered the data this year to be able to share with anyone interested.

I have necropsy photos of all the kills and have shared them in the .223 thread and the “22 Creedmoor thread”.


1. Bull Moose: Yardage: 523. Impact Velocity: 2,180. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: What most would call "high shoulder". Distance Traveled After Shot:20-30 feet.

2. Black Bear Boar: Yardage: 110-130 (never ranged). Impact Velocity: 2,900ish. Shot Position: Standing Supported. Impact Location: Mid Body Distance Traveled After Shot: 80-90 yards full sprint before collapsing.

3. Mule Deer Buck: Yardage: 636. Impact Velocity: 2,150. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location: High Brisket. Distance Travelled After Shot: 180-220 yards tumbling/rolling downhill.

4. Coues Deer Buck (Different Shooter): Yardage: 212. Impact Velocity: 2,720. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 1st Shot Neck. Ran 40-60 yards and stumbled but stayed up. 2nd shot broke as it started jogging forward again, impacted rear quarter. Deer dropped and died. Distance Travelled After Shot: 40-60 Yards.

5. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 203. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 4th Rib Bone. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

6. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 40-50 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,050. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Between 4th and 5th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

7. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 404. Impact Velocity: 2,390. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location:Scapula. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

8. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 20-30 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,070. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Quartering Away, 5th and 6th ribs. Distance Traveled After Shot: 110-130 Yards.

9. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 272. Impact Velocity: 2,610. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location:Between 3rd and 4th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 120-140 yards.

10. Whitetail Doe (Different Shooter): Yardage: 208. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Kneeling Supported. Impact Location: Forward-Facing Neck (head up smelling us). Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

11. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 510. Impact Velocity: 2,225. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: 1 Shot, 5th Rib. Deer ran 60-80 yards and stopped. 2nd Shot, Scapula. Dropped. Distance Traveled After Shot: 60-80 Yards.

12. Whitetail Buck: Yardage 232. Impact Velocity:2,730ish. Shot Position: Standing, supported by tree branch. Impact Location: 3rd Rib. Distance Traveled After Shot: 5-10
Yards.

13. Bull Elk: Yardage: 120ish (never ranged). Impact Velocity: 2,920ish. Shot Position: Kneeling Unsupported. Impact Location:High on the 5th Rib Bone. Exited 5th Rib Bone. Bullet lodged in offside fat/hide. Massive fragmentation, damaged spine, damaged lung, heart was chunked up mess. Distance Travelled After Shot: 0 Yards. Paralyzed. Heavy and labored breathing for around 90 seconds.

Thank you very much for this.

I am seeing several deer shot in the 4-6 ribs traveling 100 + yards. Is this similar to what you have seen personally with larger calibers shooting similar bullets?

Comparing my notes of 6.5 PRC of animals shot in simlar places they seem to travel around 40 yards. Ive noticed alert animals seem to make it further. What are your thoughts?

 

[Jake Larsen]

I am curious about where you found that Berger "builds bullets that way". The only thing I have ever seen from Berger was(is) posted on their website. They stated that their current hunting bullets were originally their target bullets. They changed the name on the box to hunting, after receiving field reports of success from hunters using their target bullets for hunting.

That and most of their current target bullets work mostly the same as their hunting bullets. I may be totally wrong, but I don't think they have done any hunting bullet design or testing. I think they stumbled upon something that works well, by some kind of happy accident.

6 mm 108 Grain Elite Hunter Rifle Bullet

Berger's 6mm 108 Grain Elite Hunter was designed for shooters that want to utilize extremely flat shooting 6mm cartridges, like the 6mm Creedmoor or 6 PRC, to take animals at longer ranges than traditional hunting Rifle Bullets. The heavier weight and optimized hybrid ogive design allow for the...

bergerbullets.com

“Elite Hunters are designed to penetrate 2-3″ into the vitals and then begin to expand and create a massive wound cavity up to 15″. This delivers maximum organ/tissue damage and extreme hydrostatic shock aiding in an ethical kill.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Article 4]

If you knew science like you claim too, you might understand that there are many different types of energy in a system equation. The ballistic pressure waves are more relevant than say heat energy, but until someone can prove ballistics pressure waves have a measurable effect on incapacitation ( they’ve tried several times) it’ll be a separate issue.

Disagree
Who brought up heat energy as part of the equation.

Look, if you are going to refute me, show me data