Considering a move to smokeless

[satchamo]

I’ve killed a half or so dozen deer with my Cva optima now and honestly have fallen in love with the absolute dumping effect I’ve had with a ML so far….

That said - I’m kicking the tires on a move to smokeless and 45 cal. That said - I’m not looking to build some 6k custom on a bolt action. I’d love an encore with a smokeless conversion but it’s still gonna be $2500ish for something like this.

I know there is the 45/70 conversion option or CVA Endura are the more “economical” options but am I missing other options?

 

[BBob]

It doesn’t take $6K for a bolt action smokeless. There are barrel nut barrels available for a few actions. You can’t run quite as high of pressure with the nutted barrels but they still get moving pretty well. Put it in a Bravo stock and go to town.

 

[KnightExtreme]

If I was looking to get a SML I would say an Omgea Action with a Custom Barrel or a Woodsman Arms Custom ML. But both would be a wait as barrels are several month wait and a G3 is also some time. But those that have either like it some due to the cost of B$209 Powder as SML is less Cost just have only use what SML the maker says to as some are to have over the pressure limit so you use specifc SML Powders. Checkout WA they have some good Custom SML ML Rifles / Builds.
KE
Note these are not Bolt Actions Break Actions for the most part.

 

[ElDiablito]

Woodman Arms.

As @KnightExtreme says, sml barrel for a TC Omega, Encore or REM 700, or a G3 Patriot. You could also buy a used Savage .50 10ml2, and rebarrel to .45.

I have two SML Omegas, three 10ml2s and a G3. They’ll do everything you’d want to do within 600 yards (or perhaps further with a heavy barrel).

OEM Info | Woodman Arms Inc.

www.woodmanarms.com

 

[CMP70306]

45cal Savage Prefit Barrels - Arrowhead Rifles

Brux prefit 45cal Savage barrels. Includes Gen2 LRMP breechplug and QTY 20 Gen2 Primer Modules (ASG152 - 308 Case Head) Compatible with Savage 10ML (not 10ML-2), Axis, and Savage CF Actions Go/No Go Gauge Set: Click Here Deprime Stand: Click Here Hand Primer: Lee or RCBS Slotted Bolt head: Click...

arrowheadrifles.com

Arrowhead makes a Prefit barrel for Savage thread actions that I use. It works well shooting 275gr bullets at 2400 fps cut to 20” and a mild load.

Kills deer pretty damn well too with major exit wounds.

 

[nockhunter]

I just sent my H&R 45-70 barrel off to Hankins (this morning) for a conversion to smokeless muzzleloader.

Mike

 

[Pickettpuncher]

45cal Savage Prefit Barrels - Arrowhead Rifles

Brux prefit 45cal Savage barrels. Includes Gen2 LRMP breechplug and QTY 20 Gen2 Primer Modules (ASG152 - 308 Case Head) Compatible with Savage 10ML (not 10ML-2), Axis, and Savage CF Actions Go/No Go Gauge Set: Click Here Deprime Stand: Click Here Hand Primer: Lee or RCBS Slotted Bolt head: Click...

arrowheadrifles.com

Arrowhead makes a Prefit barrel for Savage thread actions that I use. It works well shooting 275gr bullets at 2400 fps cut to 20” and a mild load.

Kills deer pretty damn well too with major exit wounds.

What load data did you get. I’ve got a pacnor barrel on a savage action and I can beat 2400 by quite a bit. But it is a 24” barrel.

 

[Chris in TN]

Used, older Remington 700ml (not UML)
-McGowan barrel
-badger ridge breechplug

I did that and like it. I also still shoot an old savage 10mlii.

The weakness of either of those, is the ignition. I will freely admit that the modern ignition module ignition is superior, because my gun with vent liners, the channel between the primer and the vent liner, fouls very rapidly on both of them, and if you don’t stay on top of that, it becomes a problem. Both in terms of accuracy and reliability.

Keep them clean and it’s not really a problem.

If I was starting again I’d go with the CVA 45-70 conversion. Just realized that you can vary effectively kill deer as far away as you can hit them, with smokeless loads that aren’t really much more powerful than modern Magnum Blackhorn or T7 loads.

 

[TaperPin]

A couple years ago I looked into making a smokeless barrel for a Remington 700 centerfire receiver not muzzleloader, and found a gunsmith that does them regularly willing to shared his machining tips. It didn’t seem a lot more involved than an appropriately sized barrel, threaded for the receiver in a normal way, with a chamber made for a shortened primed rifle case case for ignition, and a breach plug with a small hole separating the bore and shortened case. The receiver and bolt were unchanged.

Are any guns still being made like that or is that ancient history vintage stuff now?

 

[satchamo]

I just sent my H&R 45-70 barrel off to Hankins (this morning) for a conversion to smokeless muzzleloader.

Mike

How much is he charging if you don’t mind me asking

 

[ElDiablito]

with a chamber made for a shortened primed rifle case case for ignition, and a breach plug with a small hole separating the bore and shortened case. The receiver and bolt were unchanged.

Are any guns still being made like that or is that ancient history vintage stuff now?

Sounds like the REM UML ignition system. No, pretty janky and outdated.

209 or LRMP module ignition these days.

 

[BBob]

Are any guns still being made like that or is that ancient history vintage stuff now?

You make them basically the same way but as said above you’d use a more modern breech plug and modules from Arrowhead or Hankins.

There are several dedicated ML custom bolt action actions available with a shellholder bolt face that makes for easier loading/unloading of the module.

They are a bit easier to make since you aren’t using a reamer to chamber it where you’ve got to get the throat right. You do have to decide if you want to use faster or slower powders which will determine what volume your powder chamber will be. .45’s and .50’s are less critical there than a .40. There’s still plenty of minutia to ponder if you like

 

[CMP70306]

What load data did you get. I’ve got a pacnor barrel on a savage action and I can beat 2400 by quite a bit. But it is a 24” barrel.

I want to say 60gr of H4198, I know the powder is right but I don’t shoot it much and loaded the tubes going on two years ago so I’m not 100% on the charge. We have a 1 week muzzleloader season here in PA so I keep it as a barrel most of the year and put it on whatever rifle I don’t plan on hunting with come rifle season. It gets shot twice to zero, and then once at the end of the season with any extras being deer.

It’s definitely a mild load though, when I had the 25” barrel still I was running 2350 with a 300gr so I cut off 5” and dropped to 275 and picked up 50 fps. One other consideration is I’m running it suppressed so I can’t run the 70+gr charges some guys can.

 

[Chris in TN]

I want to say 60gr of H4198, I know the powder is right but I don’t shoot it much and loaded the tubes going on two years ago so I’m not 100% on the charge. We have a 1 week muzzleloader season here in PA so I keep it as a barrel most of the year and put it on whatever rifle I don’t plan on hunting with come rifle season. It gets shot twice to zero, and then once at the end of the season with any extras being deer.

It’s definitely a mild load though, when I had the 25” barrel still I was running 2350 with a 300gr so I cut off 5” and dropped to 275 and picked up 50 fps. One other consideration is I’m running it suppressed so I can’t run the 70+gr charges some guys can.

View attachment 986719

So, when I built mine, H4198 was hard to find, so I used IMR4198 instead.

23” barrel and with a saboted fury 40/225 I get 2525-2550’ with 59 grains. Plenty of speed for the ranges I hunt.

But I’ve also hunted quite a bit with the Hornady 45/40 200 sst-ml bullet (in a harvester blue sabot) over 28.0 or 33.0 grains of n110. Powderpuff load.

I’m not a follower of the ‘wallop’ school of thought but when you hit something with 225 grains moving 2500’ there’ll be signs. This guy trotted past me about 35 yards away and I took a snapshot that apparently hit his ‘off’ switch:


My oldest daughter got this one with the 59/4198 load.


33 grains of n110 and the 200sst:





28.0 grains of n110, 200 sst. I hunted with that load last year so my middle child could shoot it. She wasn’t with me this day though:




Older picture of a deer I killed with my old Savage. 59.0 H4198, 45/300 SST. Yes, that’s my house in the background:



I don’t know that I’ve ever had anything hit with my smokeless guns run more than 60 yards. I think the furthest was the buck with 28 grains of n110; he ran about 60, hit in the bottom of the heart and lungs.

The Fury and the Hornady SSTs tend to expand well in the 1900’+ range. Keep them above that for best results. If you want to experiment with even lighter loads, try the Hornady XTP. We used to shoot deer with the 45/250 and they expand violently above maybe 1800’ but sufficiently at any speed I’ve ever hit anything with them, of course that bullet doesn’t need a ton of expansion to kill stuff if placed well. Their BC is terrible but they’re fine for 0-150 yard use.

 

[Pickettpuncher]

I want to say 60gr of H4198, I know the powder is right but I don’t shoot it much and loaded the tubes going on two years ago so I’m not 100% on the charge. We have a 1 week muzzleloader season here in PA so I keep it as a barrel most of the year and put it on whatever rifle I don’t plan on hunting with come rifle season. It gets shot twice to zero, and then once at the end of the season with any extras being deer.

It’s definitely a mild load though, when I had the 25” barrel still I was running 2350 with a 300gr so I cut off 5” and dropped to 275 and picked up 50 fps. One other consideration is I’m running it suppressed so I can’t run the 70+gr charges some guys can.

View attachment 986719

I’ve considered cutting mine to 20” and getting a suppressor. I use quite a bit more powder as well with a 275 but looking at cutting the recoil. 2800fps kills on both ends. Last two seasons I’ve went to a 250 fury around 2675fps. It’s better, but still packs a punch

 

[CMP70306]

So, when I built mine, H4198 was hard to find, so I used IMR4198 instead.

23” barrel and with a saboted fury 40/225 I get 2525-2550’ with 59 grains. Plenty of speed for the ranges I hunt.

But I’ve also hunted quite a bit with the Hornady 45/40 200 sst-ml bullet (in a harvester blue sabot) over 28.0 or 33.0 grains of n110. Powderpuff load.

I’m not a follower of the ‘wallop’ school of thought but when you hit something with 225 grains moving 2500’ there’ll be signs. This guy trotted past me about 35 yards away and I took a snapshot that apparently hit his ‘off’ switch:
View attachment 986723

My oldest daughter got this one with the 59/4198 load.
View attachment 986724

33 grains of n110 and the 200sst:



View attachment 986725

28.0 grains of n110, 200 sst. I hunted with that load last year so my middle child could shoot it. She wasn’t with me this day though:


View attachment 986726

Older picture of a deer I killed with my old Savage. 59.0 H4198, 45/300 SST. Yes, that’s my house in the background:

View attachment 986732

I don’t know that I’ve ever had anything hit with my smokeless guns run more than 60 yards. I think the furthest was the buck with 28 grains of n110; he ran about 60, hit in the bottom of the heart and lungs.

The Fury and the Hornady SSTs tend to expand well in the 1900’+ range. Keep them above that for best results. If you want to experiment with even lighter loads, try the Hornady XTP. We used to shoot deer with the 45/250 and they expand violently above maybe 1800’ but sufficiently at any speed I’ve ever hit anything with them, of course that bullet doesn’t need a ton of expansion to kill stuff if placed well. Their BC is terrible but they’re fine for 0-150 yard use.

I’m using the 275gr NSR bullets from Arrowhead, first deer I ever killed with the 300gr ran 100 yards but that slipped between two ribs and had limited expansion. The 275gr bullets have killed pretty much everything post haste but half my kills have been neck or sternum shots which typically dump them on impact.

I’ve considered cutting mine to 20” and getting a suppressor. I use quite a bit more powder as well with a 275 but looking at cutting the recoil. 2800fps kills on both ends. Last two seasons I’ve went to a 250 fury around 2675fps. It’s better, but still packs a punch

The suppressor definitely helps with the recoil quite a bit to the point I won’t shoot it without it.

 

[ElDiablito]

The suppressor definitely helps with the recoil quite a bit to the point I won’t shoot it without it.

Which can are you using?

 

[bigunit]

I got a cva 45-70 conversion from hanks. Shoots very well. I like the 275gr fury and n120 for about 2500fps. 300 yards is easy. Recoil isn't bad at all and i no longer even use the brake. Just easier to load powder and push a bullet in.

 

[satchamo]

45cal Savage Prefit Barrels - Arrowhead Rifles

Brux prefit 45cal Savage barrels. Includes Gen2 LRMP breechplug and QTY 20 Gen2 Primer Modules (ASG152 - 308 Case Head) Compatible with Savage 10ML (not 10ML-2), Axis, and Savage CF Actions Go/No Go Gauge Set: Click Here Deprime Stand: Click Here Hand Primer: Lee or RCBS Slotted Bolt head: Click...

arrowheadrifles.com

Arrowhead makes a Prefit barrel for Savage thread actions that I use. It works well shooting 275gr bullets at 2400 fps cut to 20” and a mild load.

Kills deer pretty damn well too with major exit wounds.

Excuse my ignorance here but is this only for the savage ML or can you convert a savage CF to a ML using this kit?? It says you can use an axis but it’s kind of vague.

 

[Chris in TN]

Excuse my ignorance here but is this only for the savage ML or can you convert a savage CF to a ML using this kit?? It says you can use an axis but it’s kind of vague.

Yes, that's for either a regular savage centerfire action, or the older 10ML *version 1*, which, back in the day, used a regular bolt face and module based on a .45acp case, IIRC. I could have the details wrong - when I went to buy mine (2004) the 10MLII was out and that's what I ended up with. It had a different bolt head that just holds a bare 209 primer.