Conflicted on my archery setup for stalking elk

[mtn_man]

Wanting to get some perspective from those of you who stalk elk. I'm going out on my first archery stalk for late season elk in WA state. I've taken time off the 9-5 routine since early May to learn compound archery (needed a break anyway), so I've been working my ass off shooting daily, working on my bow, and building / testing arrows. I've hit every goal that I've set out for and then some, but I have one final thing to nail down.

For elk stalking (not from a stand or blind), I'm conflicted for what I want to use in terms of DW and arrows. I'd like to be in the 285-295FPS range regardless and have a higher FOC, 31" DL currently shooting 31" arrows with a 33" Phase 4 at 66#. With regards to FOC, I'm going for at least 16%, ideally 17-18% minimum. I've done extensive testing ever since I started building arrows this past May and have observed penetration anomalies with all of my lower FOC arrow builds exacerbated by cross winds.

These are the arrows that I'm debating:

450-460gn RIP XVs (300 spine):
Pros:
- VERY tight pin gap
- >20% FOC with incredible 50y penetration into wild hogs
- Exceptionally accurate with IW BHs and Magnus Stingers / Black Hornets
- Over 300FPS at 66# (I'd probably run them at ~63# ~295FPS)
Cons:
- Shafts are very fragile (they tend to split down the long axis)
- These fragile shafts make me nervous for field use
- On the light side for elk?

475gn RIP TKOs
Pros:
- They've very accurate, shafts are very durable
- 290FPS with an ideal elevation trajectory for my max effective range
- No signs of being under spined at 66# (tight at groups long range regardless of DW)
Cons:
- 14.2% FOC, penetration is hit or miss in the wind beyond 40y (deal breaker)

510-520gn RIP TKOs
Pros:
- Penetration is comparable to my RIP XVs (night and day difference compared to the 475gn)
- 16.8-17% FOC depending on fletch / vinyl
Cons:
- 275FPS, limits my max range for an ethical shot (the psychology of shooting these beyond 40y bugs me)
- Clearly under spined at 66#, so I'd need to build a different arrow in the 510-520gn range (I'm confident in being able to build a comparable arrow with a 250 spine)

I also have some 5mm Easton Axis arrows built out in 300 spine, but they're under spined over 64# regardless of the weight up front.


So I'm considering:

1. Taking my chances with the lighter RIP XV arrows
2. Drawing 70# to shoot the heavier arrows at the velocity that I'm looking for. I can draw 70# on my neighbor's PSE, but judging the pace at which I've worked up to 66# it'll probably take me 3-4 weeks before I'm conditioned to shoot at 70# all day (if that makes sense)
3. Open to suggestions

Thanks!

 

[OkiechasingElk]

Sounds like you’ve done the work. Pick what you are most confident and accurate with.

Confidence is more important that a few FPS.

All of your setups will work great with accurate shot placement.

 

[ndfb35]

I've been down the rabbit hole before and the poster above is correct in saying pick what you are most accurate with. My lady can kill elk shooting 56 lbs and 350 gr arrows. You are well above her "limitations", accuracy kills.

 

[waitforit]

You are overthinking this. Shot placement above all else, and there is nothing wrong with any of the options you laid out. This choice is not going to make or break your hunt.

 

[IrkedCitizen]

I have a 31.25" DL and pull 68#. My go to arrows are Easton ACC 3-71 cut 29.25" with 4 flex fletch ffs-212 vanes and they are 455gr with 125gr tips. They are going 270fps from my bow. They no longer produce them so when they are all gone I will have to find something else.

Probably Black Eagle Rampage. .204" ID

 

[mtn_man]

You are overthinking this. Shot placement above all else, and there is nothing wrong with any of the options you laid out. This choice is not going to make or break your hunt.

Yeah I definitely get that. I might just take my chances with the lighter / flat shooting arrows with the higher FOC. They fly excellent and they're very fun to shoot.

It's funny, it's looking like the first 1/2 dozen arrows that I built before I went deep down the arrow building rabbit hole are the ones that I'm probably going to use lol. Shot a few different arrows yesterday in the 450-462gn range at 75y into a quartering crosswind, and they didn't group too far from one another. Sight was zeroed for the 475gn, so I just dialed it back to ~70y to get them into the foam target.



That one on the bottom left with the offset fletch is a lemon. Built 3 like that and it's never grouped with the other 2. The TKO with the orange vanes under the main group was the heaviest. They shoot decent, but the FOC is only 10.9%. I know that having a higher FOC doesn't guarantee anything, but I'll gladly take that statistically minor benefit for my first elk hunt!

@IrkedCitizen I would also check out the Sirius Gemini shafts. Their 250 spine are 8.68 GPI (300's are 8.65). They also have some guarantees that are pretty bold for an arrow company.

 

[raptor16]

How do you know penetration is hit or miss with the 14.2% FOC RIPs beyond 40 yards?

 

[mtn_man]

How do you know penetration is hit or miss with the 14.2% FOC RIPs beyond 40 yards?

We shot some wild hogs and used them for target practice afterwards.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

If you're so concerned about FOC that you're reporting it to the tenth of a percent, you shouldn't be shooting an arrow 2" longer than necessary. You could gain about 0.5% FOC on any of those arrows just by trimming them back to 29". If you trimmed 2" and added weight to the front to keep TAW the same, you could gain about 1.5 to 2% FOC. Or you could come to the realization that FOC isn't really that important and quit worrying about it.

I understand the impulse to tinker and obsess over details, but you're way overthinking this decision. Any of the arrows you mentioned will work, but in the interest of helping you pick one, here's my line of thinking:

1. I would avoid an ultralight shaft like a RIP XV for hunting due to fragility concerns.
2. This close to the hunt, I wouldn't be pushing myself to increase draw weight, so the heavier RIP TKO is off the table if you want to maintain ≈290 fps.
3. So the 475 gr RIP TKO is the remaining option. I can't imagine there's really a "night and day" penetration difference between this arrow and your other two. If you saw significant differences during your dead hog testing, I would guess it was due to some variable(s) other than just arrow weight (or was simply an artifact of the inherent randomness of shooting into a non-homogenous target). If the "low" (it's not actually low) FOC of this arrow is a hang up for you, trim it down 2" and add an extra 15-20 gr on the front to get FOC up to ≈16%.

 

[Scoot]

My thoughts are this: 1) you are totally overthinking this, 2) you didn't mention if any of the options are more accurate than the rest (this is the most important, given the good options you're presenting), and 3) when talking about compound bows, 450-460 was heavy a couple decades ago! That weight is great! I'd keep your poundage the same and shoot that option, provided it was as accurate as the other options. That package will be hell on elk, as long as you do your job as a shooter. As was said above, shot selection and placement ultimately is king (although I do like the fact that you've done your homework and considered some very good options). Good luck and don't forget to have fun!

 

[5MilesBack]

What MM said. I don't like fragile arrows because I shoot at 32.5" draw at 70+ pounds with a Mathews Traverse. I expect my arrows to survive hard hits, and they have for the most part. I've been shooting RIP TKO 250's the last couple years cut at 30". They come in right at 500gr. Have no idea what the FOC is and don't even care. The ones you listed at 475gr will work just fine. I was shooting the 80 yard target the other day, and arrows were burying up to the fletching. And there isn't that much activity on the 80 yard target. They'll penetrate just fine. I put one 20" through a 2x6 at 100 yards a couple years ago, and had to get a hammer to pound it out.

 

[mtn_man]

If you're so concerned about FOC that you're reporting it to the tenth of a percent, you shouldn't be shooting an arrow 2" longer than necessary. You could gain about 0.5% FOC on any of those arrows just by trimming them back to 29". If you trimmed 2" and added weight to the front to keep TAW the same, you could gain about 1.5 to 2% FOC. Or you could come to the realization that FOC isn't really that important and quit worrying about it.

My DL is somewhere between 31-31.25". I don't like outserts, but that would have to be a long outsert to keep my fixed broadheads from hitting the shelf. I'm going to stick with the IW collars and inserts though. Haven't broken any shafts since I started using them.

Now I get the politics around FOC and the whole Ranch Fairy / Dudley debate, but I'm honestly not interested in FOC beyond efficiently converting as much of the KE from my relatively long arrows into terminal energy in the animal. Plain and simple. I want to run the lightest possible arrows, but it looks like I'd need at least another 25-35 grains to get these carbon mesh arrows on track.

I've shot hundreds of arrows a day, almost every day since early May. I'm qualified to spot anomalies when I see them and this has been a common enough occurrence that I can't ignore it. Noticed early on that on windy days, the lower weight / lower KE arrows with the higher FOC have much better penetration, more consistently than the heavier / higher KE arrows with lower FOC using the sane broadheads (and field points for that matter). It was worse testing them at hogs.

I won't deny that I'm overthinking it .. career engineer here and that's just what I do lol. The most important factor to me is recognizing that I owe it to the animal to not cut any corners / roll the dice when I could put in the work now to minimize anomalies. IF I get a shot on an elk, I want to be able to say that I did everything that I possibly could have done up to that point. In this regard, I don't see it being unreasonable working up another 4-5# to get the trajectory I need for 25-30 more grains on the TKOs.

BTW, an observation that I don't see anyone mention with respects to Dudley - and I really respect the guy, but he sells a lot of Easton Axis arrows. Axis are notorious for being heavy and I can guarantee that most of Dudley's arrow customers aren't drawing 75# like he is. It's within reason for a man in his position to talk people / customers out of factoring in a decent FOC and running lighter arrows. Their arrows probably fly like shit with the weight required to get the FOC up, so I can't discount his incentive.

I just have a hard time accepting the idea that FOC doesn't matter. Maybe in calm winds with short arrows with level targets, but variables and physics will eventually manifest the differences.

 

[sneaky]

Why are you shooting 31" arrows out of your 31" draw compound? I'm a 31.5" DL, and my arrows are a little over 29". You're suffering from analysis paralysis. A 450gr arrow is plenty, stop watching the Ranch Fairy videos and go kill stuff.

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[sneaky]

Also... if this is your first year hunting with a compound, stop worrying about shots over 40yds. You need to get close and put an arrow through the lungs and call it good.

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[WoodrowCall]

Why are you shooting 31" arrows out of your 31" draw compound? I'm a 31.5" DL, and my arrows are a little over 29". You're suffering from analysis paralysis. A 450gr arrow is plenty, stop watching the Ranch Fairy videos and go kill stuff.

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Took the words out of my mouth. Watching too much Ranch Fairy.

OP, if you like to tinker, that’s great. But none of that stuff really matters without shot execution. Especially if you’ve not bow hunted before. Wait until that animal gets within range, you have to draw, and then execute a lethal shot. FOC doesn’t mean a whole lot to get to that split second moment.

 

[sneaky]

My DL is somewhere between 31-31.25". I don't like outserts, but that would have to be a long outsert to keep my fixed broadheads from hitting the shelf. I'm going to stick with the IW collars and inserts though. Haven't broken any shafts since I started using them.

Now I get the politics around FOC and the whole Ranch Fairy / Dudley debate, but I'm honestly not interested in FOC beyond efficiently converting as much of the KE from my relatively long arrows into terminal energy in the animal. Plain and simple. I want to run the lightest possible arrows, but it looks like I'd need at least another 25-35 grains to get these carbon mesh arrows on track.

I've shot hundreds of arrows a day, almost every day since early May. I'm qualified to spot anomalies when I see them and this has been a common enough occurrence that I can't ignore it. Noticed early on that on windy days, the lower weight / lower KE arrows with the higher FOC have much better penetration, more consistently than the heavier / higher KE arrows with lower FOC using the sane broadheads (and field points for that matter). It was worse testing them at hogs.

I won't deny that I'm overthinking it .. career engineer here and that's just what I do lol. The most important factor to me is recognizing that I owe it to the animal to not cut any corners / roll the dice when I could put in the work now to minimize anomalies. IF I get a shot on an elk, I want to be able to say that I did everything that I possibly could have done up to that point. In this regard, I don't see it being unreasonable working up another 4-5# to get the trajectory I need for 25-30 more grains on the TKOs.

BTW, an observation that I don't see anyone mention with respects to Dudley - and I really respect the guy, but he sells a lot of Easton Axis arrows. Axis are notorious for being heavy and I can guarantee that most of Dudley's arrow customers aren't drawing 75# like he is. It's within reason for a man in his position to talk people / customers out of factoring in a decent FOC and running lighter arrows. Their arrows probably fly like shit with the weight required to get the FOC up, so I can't discount his incentive.

I just have a hard time accepting the idea that FOC doesn't matter. Maybe in calm winds with short arrows with level targets, but variables and physics will eventually manifest the differences.

You're not going to hit your riser with a fixed blade head unless your setup is completely off on center shot. As an engineer you completely overlooked that detail. Some of the best shooters in the world couldn't tell you what their FOC is, and they don't care. FOC for penetration isn't nearly as important on the compound side as it is on the trad side. An arrow cut to 29-29.25 is going to be stiffer and have less deflection on target. I've killed elk with both compound and trad gear. 425gr arrow out of a 61# compound, and 505gr arrow out of a mid 50ish pound recurve. All the elk died, none complained about FOC.

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[Mighty Mouse]

My DL is somewhere between 31-31.25". I don't like outserts, but that would have to be a long outsert to keep my fixed broadheads from hitting the shelf. I'm going to stick with the IW collars and inserts though. Haven't broken any shafts since I started using them.

Unless your broadheads are especially wide or your rest is adjusted especially low and/or close to the riser, you should be able to get your broadheads behind the riser. It may not be doable in all cases, but it's fairly common for guys to cut their arrows significantly shorter than their DL and not have broadhead clearance issues.

Collars I could take or leave, but I agree with you on sticking with HIT's...best insert option available for .204" shafts IMO.

I've shot hundreds of arrows a day, almost every day since early May. I'm qualified to spot anomalies when I see them and this has been a common enough occurrence that I can't ignore it. Noticed early on that on windy days, the lower weight / lower KE arrows with the higher FOC have much better penetration, more consistently than the heavier / higher KE arrows with lower FOC using the sane broadheads (and field points for that matter). It was worse testing them at hogs.

Without knowing all the details of each arrow, I can't posit a guess as to possible causes of your observed penetration differences, but it's clear that you're not observing the effect of FOC alone. You're changing more than just FOC if TAW and KE are changing. Perhaps some other unstated variable can account for the observed penetration differences. I've read the original Ashby reports, the more recent ABF studies, and watched as much RF as I could stand (which admittedly wasn't much) and remain unconvinced that FOC has a significant influence on penetration.

 

[Marbles]

I get the sickness of obsessing, however, stop playing with your setup this close to a hunt, pick one arrow and get very intimate with how it flies. You are the biggest variable.

Personally, go with one of the TKOs and plan to keep shots closer than 40 yards. Get comfortable enough with the heavier version, and you can extend that, but taking what you have said at face value, the lighter version is a hard stop at 40 yards. My guess, is the lack of penetration is not from the FOC, but because something about this combination is not always hitting straight on (would need slow motion video to confirm).

If the arrow breaks on a bone, there will be no penetration, so the XVs would be out for me.

A friends 403 grain Easton Axis with only 116 grains up front passed completely through a caribou at 61 yards even after center punching a rib. FOC was probably about 12%.

None of the arrows you list will let you confidentiality hit the near side shoulder, so regardless you need a clear shot at the boiler room.

All that said, have fun.

 

[mtn_man]

Unless your broadheads are especially wide or your rest is adjusted especially low and/or close to the riser, you should be able to get your broadheads behind the riser. It may not be doable in all cases, but it's fairly common for guys to cut their arrows significantly shorter than their DL and not have broadhead clearance issues.

Collars I could take or leave, but I agree with you on sticking with HIT's...best insert option available for .204" shafts IMO.


Without knowing all the details of each arrow, I can't posit a guess as to possible causes of your observed penetration differences, but it's clear that you're not observing the effect of FOC alone. You're changing more than just FOC if TAW and KE are changing. Perhaps some other unstated variable can account for the observed penetration differences. I've read the original Ashby reports, the more recent ABF studies, and watched as much RF as I could stand (which admittedly wasn't much) and remain unconvinced that FOC has a significant influence on penetration.

The only RF video I've seen was Dudley's interview. I haven't spent much time on Youtube other than watching what I needed to for learning how to tune / time / sync my bow and different stretching / workout routines. I can't really stomach social media influencers lol, but Dudley, MFJJ, and Mtn Physio have put out some helpful content.

I don't like the idea of bringing a sharp fixed 2 blade BH over the shelf to the edge of my rest (I'm using shaft collars anyway). My center shot is bang on, using the 13/16 starting point and I end up with 1-2 clicks from center with my QAD rest.

If the arrow breaks on a bone, there will be no penetration, so the XVs would be out for me.

The XVs are weird. I haven't broken any since I started using the IW reinforce system. Shot one into a granite rock when I tested the durability of the IW S100's and the shaft survived, but I've had others fracture down the middle of the shaft on 4x4 hemlock using the brass Easton HIT inserts. I even had one from that dozen crack when I stuck a Q-tip in it!

Every XV that I've had break cracked down the center like that. I also had 2 in a new dozen pack of elite shafts that had ~1/4" cracks at the front right down the center. I shot a 125gn Magnus Stinger 2 blade with a 50 or 75gn brass HIT into the ribs of a hog from 15y, and it warped the blade, but the XV and insert were fine.

Ordered a couple dozen Sirius Gemini shafts in 250 spine. Going to get some 70# or 75# SW mods for my Phase 4 and work up at least another 4-5#. I have solid archery strength and form, and I should have plenty of time to get dialed in before mid-November as long as the Geminis aren't delayed a month or more.

Collars I could take or leave, but I agree with you on sticking with HIT's...best insert option available for .204" shafts IMO.

Indeed, the HITs awesome! I also believe that MFJJ was correct in saying the inserts are the weakest link in an arrow.

 

[5MilesBack]

I don't like the idea of bringing a sharp fixed 2 blade BH over the shelf to the edge of my rest (I'm using shaft collars anyway).

I don't use collars for two reasons: (1) I cut my arrows as short as possible to the rest. I'd have to add another 1-1.5" of arrow length for a collar to clear my rest. And (2), after 17 years of shooting .204" ID arrows with HIT's and without collars, I just haven't seen a reason to use collars. For me, there are more negatives to them than benefits (the extra cost, extra time, ensuring they spin true, possibly more tuning issues, etc). I just haven't broken the ends of many arrows over the years.

After 2+ years of shooting the RIP TKO's I haven't broken any of those with just 75gr brass HIT's in them. A couple weeks ago an arrow blew right through a shot out turkey target on a "rocky" mountain course and survived with no damage except a damaged FP. Then missed a pronghorn target at 76 yards trying to hold over with my 60 pin. Again, no arrow damage. My 500gr arrows are flying 297fps with half a turn taken out of my Traverse.

Heck, for the price of some of those collars, you could buy several extra arrow shafts as backups if one does happen to break.