Colorado wolf introduction

[BigAntlerGetter]

On one hand I don't want any more competition on the other wolves do belong. On the fence on this one

False Canadian Grey Wolves DO NOT BELONG, they are a non native species to Colorado and he United States.

Have you seen the devastation the Non Native Zebra Mussels do to lakes??? Same principle, they are Non Native EVER. Canadian Grey Wolves have never been in Colorado for 100’s of years.


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[BigAntlerGetter]

Just my opinions here... I am by no means pro wolf but living in MN and having a family that owns a large farm in WI wolf country I don't agree with these facts. The size of the deer antlers has nothing to do with Wolves, at least I haven't seen any studies on it. My father still talks about the old days when he would see 100 deer a day but you would be hard fought to find anything with a large rack. There were so many deer that the landscape wasn't able to provide enough nutrition in those county forests. In theory, less deer means more feed for what critters are there, which can lead to good antler growth. If you are worked up about low deer numbers then follow up with your state DNR. Or try to push for antler restrictions. A lot of people out there have no problem shooting 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer. I see no problem with that, to each their own. Also, they purposely attempt to keep deer #s low in moose country for a reason. Wolves due hurt the ability of the moose population to rebound because they prey on the calves and I believe they end up taking a large % of them. Lets be honest though, the population was in decline for other reasons. People forget that their were wolves in MN when the Moose population was at its peak.

I hunt in both states, still see plenty of deer and yes you have to actually hunt for them. Too many times I have seen people blame not seeing a deer on wolves when in reality they just don't want to put in any effort to hunt.

But your wolves are also the native species to the area, which is why you don’t see devastation. Can we introduce mountain lions to your state? How would you feel about that?


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[Kootenay Hunter]

There is no such thing as a 'Canadian wolf' species versus species found in the lower 48. They are the exact same species and are not defined by any sub species. Talk to any wolf bio and they will tell you the same. I can provide names if you'd like to contact them yourself.

The old myth that Canada sent down some super mean vicious wolves for re-introductions is baseless and false.

Wolves can range 100s if not 1,000s of miles depending on game and habitat. We have always had wolves in BC and they would inevitably make their way south to MT, ID, and WA and further over time.

So to say that Canadian wolves are non-native and do not belong is CO has no scientific merit.

And with that thinking, I guess BC shouldn't send down any more Caribou to the lower 48 as they would be non-native?!?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for re-introductions either way, just providing some facts.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

There is not such thing as a 'Canadian wolf' species versus species found in the lower 48. They are the exact same species and are not defined by any sub species. Talk to any wolf bio and they will tell you the same. I can provide names if you'd like to contact them yourself.

The old myth that Canada sent down some super mean vicious wolves for re-introductions is baseless and false.

Wolves can range 100s if not 1000s of miles depending on game and habitat. We have always had wolves in BC and they would inevitably make their way south to MT, ID, and WA and further over time.

So to say that Canadian wolves are non-native and do not belong is CO has no scientific merit.

And with that thinking, I guess BC shouldn't send down any more Caribou to the lower 48 as they would be non-native?!?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for re-introductions either way, just providing some facts. I hate when rumours or myths are spread as if truth...

Soooooooo all these subspecies are false?? Sounds like your “wolf experts” are pushing their agenda..... I bet they also say elk are elk there’s no difference between Tule, Roosevelt and Rocky Mountain Elk? Mule deer, Black Tails, Whitetails, Coues, Moose, are all the same Deer?

There are differences it’s sub species,



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[BigAntlerGetter]

Historically in the Rocky Mountains of the US CANIS LUPUS YOUNGI

And what they INTRODUCED to the Rocky Mountains of the US
CANIS LUPUS OCCIDENTALIS

Was no “REINTRODUCTION” to the Rocky Mountain Region but an INTRODUCTION. Of a non native species.


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[OleWI21]

But your wolves are also the native species to the area, which is why you don’t see devastation. Can we introduce mountain lions to your state? How would you feel about that?


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I am no genetic expert but there is data available out there. There are not as many subspecies as you believe. Again there is someone out there who has or is doing research on this. One of the wolves released in Idaho or Yellowstone (not sure) ended up traveling back up into Northern Canada. It proves that most likely, prior to humans wiping them out they most likely traveled back and forth. In my eyes pretty much shoots down the idea that the Canadian wolves are a non-native if they have traveled south prior and swapped genes . That wolf Lady who was on Meateater even said something in regards to this.

There are more non-hunters out there then hunters. If we are going to argue something against them all I am saying is opinions need to be based off from data that can be defended.

 

[Gorp2007]

The vast majority of those wolf subspecies were "identified" before the advent of genetic testing and rampant interbreeding between those subspecies makes any distinctions fuzzy at best. I haven't seen any legitimate, scientific findings that suggest that the reintroduced wolves show any differences in size or behavior when compared to wolves observed and captured in the Rockies prior to extirpation.

There are legitimate concerns regarding the reintroduction of wolves into new ecosystems, but talking about Canadian Super Wolves and how liberals are reintroducing wolves as part of a secret lupine conspiracy to eliminate the Second Amendment doesn't go very far towards gaining popular support.

 

[Kootenay Hunter]

Well, if we want to start quoting Wikipedia...

"In a monotypic species, all populations exhibit the same genetic and phenotypical characteristics. Monotypic species can occur in several ways:

• All members of the species are very similar and cannot be sensibly divided into biologically significant subcategories.
• The individuals vary considerably, but the variation is essentially random and largely meaningless so far as genetic transmission of these variations is concerned.
• The variation among individuals is noticeable and follows a pattern, but there are no clear dividing lines among separate groups: they fade imperceptibly into one another. Such clinal variation always indicates substantial gene flow among the apparently separate groups that make up the population(s). Populations that have a steady, substantial gene flow among them are likely to represent a monotypic species, even when a fair degree of genetic variation is obvious.

 

[Newtosavage]

I am no genetic expert but there is data available out there. There are not as many subspecies as you believe. Again there is someone out there who has or is doing research on this.

There are more non-hunters out there then hunters. If we are going to argue something against them all I am saying is opinions need to be based off from data that can be defended.

But why would we take the word of an actual biologist who has done actual peer-reviewed research over the word of someone who posts here? That's crazy talk.

Keep those wolves out I say. Us modern day hunters are barely able to recreate as it is.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Ok then bring the wolves in let’s see how hunting turns out over 10 years.... you guys are saying CPW already charges to much for tags and all that, wait until they have to double costs for lost livestock on the mountains and ranches... look at statistics for elk numbers in Yellowstone 1990-2017. So regardless Wolves that we’re previously here whether they are the same wolf or not we’re roughly half the size, ok I’ll say it was evolution not having to kill moose and caribou and rival grizzlies. But they are bringing a Wolf in that has been hunting and killing Yukon moose, it’s like putting a heavyweight boxer in the ring with a lightweight.... it’s gonna be easy for the heavyweight to win.

Did you ever stop to think that these wolf biologists are all pro wolf advocates? They want their “life” to thrive, so why wouldn’t they want wolves here? They can say whatever they want about wolves to fit their agenda and what can we say? Ur wrong? I’m not saying they are 100% liars, cause they do know more than I do, but I have researched a lot on this subject and have found a lot of wolf biologists going back on research they had written in the past.... yes I do understand research changes, I have different beliefs than I did 5 years ago, but why would we want another apex predator here?

Hunters complain about bears killing newborns, and mountain lions killing tons of animals, coyotes killing newborns.... so we want to add another aspect that will kill even more? And don’t give me the wolves only kill the weak and sick, Once they weed out those animals do they move to another herd and strengthen that one? Or are they going to stay where they know there’s food and continue hunting.... look at videos of wolves killing world class bulls, were they weak and sick?


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[Vandy321]

Who would we (as a CO resident) contact to voice our opposition? I'm not super political person and have no clue what representatives to contact? If they get enough opposition, who can keep it off the ballot?

Boulder and Denver seem to control the vote and if it makes it to the ballot, I dont see how it doesn't get approved.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Stopthewolf.org seems to be leading the fight , but last time I contacted them asking for more info on how to fight back and info on who to contact, they told me they didn’t want to give out that info because of the wrong people got ahold of it then it could hurt their fight and cause a loss.

I wanted to send this info to all of my hunting clients so even non residents could voice an opinion and help sway opinions of those who may be on the fence over it all.


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[Vandy321]

Stopthewolf.org seems to be leading the fight , but last time I contacted them asking for more info on how to fight back and info on who to contact, they told me they didn’t want to give out that info because of the wrong people got ahold of it then it could hurt their fight and cause a loss.

I wanted to send this info to all of my hunting clients so even non residents could voice an opinion and help sway opinions of those who may be on the fence over it all.


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I'm not the most well spoken person, but I'd think a simple letter to a Senator asking to consider the ramifications for outdoorsmen in their state, couldnt hurt.

 

[mwebs]

I do not understand why people cannot see both sides of this and every other political argument out there. Hunters are not the only people using public lands, especially in CO. So do all those other users get a say in how the land and wildlife is managed, hippies with cameras love wolves.. The fact is humans wiped out wolves and almost wiped out elk from the entire west. To say that wolves were so different from Idaho to BC is absolutely insane, to say they were biologically different in CO is slightly more believable however the differences would be small. The scientific community doesn't agree with the charts posted and it's fairly laughable to think they were so different just across one valley as a hunter that spends that much time in the mountains. Look at the female coyote they collared in Wyoming recently. It traveled way into CO and back in no time, so tell me wolves didn't do the same that's just ignoring facts. Now if your argument is humans harvest too many elk to sustain a wolf population I will listen and there is merit to that argument, we live in a different world today and wolves have been removed from the equation for a long time. But as hunters the non native (bs), we hate wolves no matter what argument is old and will lose, so get smarter and organize a coherent message that will make a difference. I live in ID so this doesn't affect me but do hunt in wolf country so it's a constant topic.

 

[wapitibob]

Stopthewolf.org seems to be leading the fight , but last time I contacted them asking for more info on how to fight back and info on who to contact, they told me they didn’t want to give out that info because of the wrong people got ahold of it then it could hurt their fight and cause a loss.

And that didn't raise any red flags?

 

[parshal]

Boulder and Denver seem to control the vote and if it makes it to the ballot, I dont see how it doesn't get approved.

This is why we passed amendment 71. It requires 55% of the state to pass an amendment. The rural voters were getting passed over for amendment conversations.

Regardless of whether the State passes an amendment the wolf is currently federally managed. As long as it remains an endangered species the State has no control and cannot make the decision to bring them back. Only the federal government can do that. Once they are delisted then the State can bring them back. Barring an amendment, the legislature must pass law to bring them back if they are delisted. CPW doesn't have the authority to make decisions without the legislature. Additionally, the Wildlife Commission is against bringing wolves back even though they know they have no authority at the moment.

So, as long as the groups keep fighting delisting, Colorado has no authority bring wolves back on their own. Wolves will probably be here in decent numbers within a decade anyway. Granted, that wouldn't initially be the same number of wolves than if they reintroduced them but they'll be here soon enough.

 

[Newtosavage]

Did you ever stop to think that these wolf biologists are all pro wolf advocates? ...

I’m not saying they are 100% liars, cause they do know more than I do...

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For someone with such strong opinions, you seem undecided as to who to believe.

Wolf biologists are probably as pro-wolf as pediatricians are pro-child, as farmers are pro-farming, and psychiatrists are pro-mental health. People don't devote their lives to studying things they don't care about.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

For someone with such strong opinions, you seem undecided as to who to believe.

Wolf biologists are probably as pro-wolf as pediatricians are pro-child, as farmers are pro-farming, and psychiatrists are pro-mental health. People don't devote their lives to studying things they don't care about.

I have my stance and it won’t be swayed, was just saying they have a degree, I have common sense and time in the field.


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[Newtosavage]

I have my stance and it won’t be swayed, was just saying they have a degree, I have common sense and time in the field.


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are you suggesting that biologists don't have time in the field?

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Geezus dude you trying to pick a fight? Pretty pro wolf sounding, maybe ur a biologist? Idc I’m saying I have a lot of time in the field and common sense never said they don’t have time in the field, but their time in the field is swayed to be pro wolf regardless.
They could find out that wolves are the cause of cancer all over the world and do you think that they are gonna share that? No cause it would prolly be the destruction of wolves

They’re biased 100%.


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