But lots of us don't clean and don’t have issues. So what is your explanation there? Are we all just somehow lucky?Don't clean and you will have issues somewhere down the line.
But lots of us don't clean and don’t have issues. So what is your explanation there? Are we all just somehow lucky?Don't clean and you will have issues somewhere down the line.
Not poking at you or anyone here but we get this a lot... and we will say this...
Would you drive your car and never change the oil and filter?
I will also say the following in no random order....
Type of powder and cartridge/case capacity is a huge variable. The bigger the case capacity and or the smaller the bore size fouling goes up. You will have to clean it more often.
Some cartridges like 308win vs bore size are vary forgiving. A 300wm or a 300 Norma won't be forgiving. Same for a 6BR vs a 243win or a 6CM. By increasing the case capacity you have turned 243w and 6CM into magnum rounds.
Type of powder and quality of powder. I do think there is a powder quality problem and or availability issues. This in turn is causing a fouling pressure problems which in turn causes accuracy and pressure issues to the point of piercing primers etc... I/we've been seeing issues with box ammo and the powder being used to load the box ammo... and it causing fouling/pressure issues. I just seen it this past November and go figure it was with a 308w gun.
You make the throat freebore diameter bigger and you effect barrel life as well as you will effect accuracy issues. Bigger doesn't mean better... tighter doesn't mean better either. If I had to pick a number I'd say .001" to .0015" on the freebore diameter vs the bullet diameter for clearance. That's as big as I would want to go and still maintain a high accuracy level. You might get away with a +.002" diameter on the throat vs bullet diameter but after that you get what you get. Loaded ammo/bullet runout will also come into play here as well.
Also not talked about is bullet quality or should I say consistency in bullet diameter/sizes.
I hate cleaning as much as the next guy but I will say this... I shoot it... I clean it. Don't clean and you will have issues somewhere down the line. Your just asking for it.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Yep lucky.But lots of us don't clean and don’t have issues. So what is your explanation there? Are we all just somehow lucky?
I've shot out barrels but sorry.... I've done routine/cleaning maintenance on them.Frank thanks for posting this. I have a few questions.
How many barrels have you personally shot out and not cleaned? Correct me if I’m wrong but haven’t you stated you can blow up a barrel by not cleaning it?
I have shot out quite a few 300 Rum barrels all went between 800 to 900 rounds with zero cleaning. I shot out a 6UM at 730 rounds zero cleaning it was shooting right up till it wasn’t with a tiny bit of land chasing.
This may sound like an attack but truthfully I’ve heard so many different cleaning procedures for each barrel manufacturer it’s hard to believe there really is a right answer.
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Yep lucky.
I've shot out barrels but sorry.... I've done routine/cleaning maintenance on them.
Yup, then that guy who has not cleaned it says it won't shoot and sends it to Frank for eval who now has to clean it to be able to evaluate it. That's not going to happen.Then you could advertise that your barrels are no-clean and have a leg up on your competition.
I've got too much data from ammunition test barrels that we make for ammo and bullet makers to see what happens if you don't clean them.So how can you call it luck if you’ve never tried it? Have you personally witnessed someone try shooting a barrel out without cleaning to see the results?
Yep been down that road and still go down that road.Yup then that guy who has not cleaned it says it won't shoot and sends it to Frank for eval who now has to clean it to be able to evaluate it. That's not going to happen.
I am aligned with you Frank - I am/was personally present when a large bbl manufacturer (most of us here run them at some point) I was working with tested with SOCOM for a contracted activity. Using predetermined MIL-STD-810 and other requirements for accuracy, POI Shift, and environmental variances as it affects rifle bbl life and overall rifle performance. These were bolt gun tests. Cliff notes on the results from 2015:I've got too much data from ammunition test barrels that we make ammo and bullet makers to see what happens if you don't clean them.
See my post #64.
This is an extreme example/cartridge but it is an example.....
"Also I can't name the cartridge.... but one place learned from early testing.... they can wreck the barrel in 150 rounds with no cleaning. To get the barrels to last and hold even an accuracy requirement of 1moa.... they have to clean that caliber every 20-30 rounds fired! Then they can get about 450 to maybe 750 rounds out of the barrel but most quite shooting at 450-500 rounds."
We're on the same page bud!I am aligned with you Frank - I am/was personally present when a large bbl manufacturer (most of us here run them at some point) I was working with tested with SOCOM for a contracted activity. Using predetermined MIL-STD-810 and other requirements for accuracy, POI Shift, and environmental variances as it affects rifle bbl life and overall rifle performance. These were bolt gun tests. Cliff notes on the results from 2015:
- BBL fouling increased variances with accuracy and POI shift as round counts increased - chronograph SD's and ES's were measured as well
- Fouled bbls/chambers/throats were more susceptible to environmental inputs and specifically temperature/humidity extremes - affected feeding and chamber pressures as round counts increased
- Fouled and dirty chambers/throats mixed with adverse conditions (sand, mud, rain, dirt etc...) increase feed issues, bolt issues, and chamber pressures.
Like your analogy of engine oil.
Look, if you are getting what you want from your dirty bbl, fine. Again I will say, if properly cleaning and bbl does no harm and is likely going to help the life and accuracy of your bbl, why would not NOT do it.
Again I will say, if properly cleaning and bbl does no harm and is likely going to help the life and accuracy of your bbl, why would not NOT do it.
Wait, a rifle bbl is not an engine? Whew, thanks for clearing that up.Why? My motivation is to spend less money and time cleaning, spend less rounds "fouling", not worry zero/poi shift from cleaning, be able to use the rokstock without having to take the action out of the stock or clean from muzzle end, etc.
I do not have hopes to be a 1/2moa on demand shooter. 1-1.5 moa is fine for my application. If that can be achieved without cleaning a barrel, I'd rather not spend my time and money doing it.
It apparently workw for some, so I'd like to figure out what helps to allow it.
But I must say that it is not analogous to changing engine oil, because it is not an engine.
Wait, a rifle bbl is not an engine? Whew, thanks for clearing that up.
What allows/helps not cleaning? Not cleaning.
If the idea is to never clean; don't. Problem solved.
Enjoy!!!
It’s crazy how so many of us are lucky to have barrels that don’t need cleaned.I started not cleaning out of laziness and now I’m cool! Ha ha. I haven’t touched the bore of my 17rem in 4 or 5 years. Probably up to 250-300rnds since last cleaning. I got one of those cool Garmin chrono’s the other day so I got it out to play with it. I shot my first shot and moved it 1 click left then shot my second shot and moved it 1 click left then shot my third shot and moved it one click up and shot final shot. 25gr Berger target @ 4K
CZ 527 m1 with shilen select match barrel
View attachment 669080
I should mention that the reason it didn’t retain zero from last time out is……you know. Can’t wait to change them all out. I need one of those new mavens 1.2’s.
The engine oil comparison is this.... do zero maintenance... expect problems.Why? My motivation is to spend less money and time cleaning, spend less rounds "fouling", not worry zero/poi shift from cleaning, be able to use the rokstock without having to take the action out of the stock or clean from muzzle end, etc.
I do not have hopes to be a 1/2moa on demand shooter. 1-1.5 moa is fine for my application. If that can be achieved without cleaning a barrel, I'd rather not spend my time and money doing it.
It apparently workw for some, so I'd like to figure out what helps to allow it.
But I must say that it is not analogous to changing engine oil, because it is not an engine.
Do you have any data on cleanliness vs precision you can share? How dirty before precision starts to slip? What are your recommendations for frequency of cleaning?The engine oil comparison is this.... do zero maintenance... expect problems.
The number one thing we see when a customer has a problem is from no cleaning and improper cleaning.
Had a guy send in a 223 bolt gun about a year ago. Shot 750ish rounds thru it with out cleaning. Put it away dirty for like 6-9 months. Finally went to clean it... he took the suppressor brake off of it and while cleaning it and started getting all the carbon off the face of the muzzle... it was all pitted/corroded. He got lucky... no pitting in the bore and the crown wasn't damaged. Again why does it happen to one guy and not another or in one spot vs another spot.
Same thing with the bore... can't tell you how many used rifles I bought or looked at and the bore was pitted/corroded and it was from not doing any cleaning.
If your not worried about velocity changes, and your good with a 1.5moa accuracy good to go. If you see problems and or not meeting your goals/spec then you will have to do something to fix it.
Pick a caliber.Do you have any data on cleanliness vs precision you can share? How dirty before precision starts to slip? What are your recommendations for frequency of cleaning?