Chamber dimensions to allow not cleaning

[khuber84]

Form, I'm gonna try this with my 22gt. No more cleaning and drop powder to 32.5gr and see how long it holds together accuracy and velocity wise. Currently is shooting really well, 80eldm at 3150-3180 range is consistent 5 shot groups 1/4 to 1/3 moa on paper at 300y. It did speed up to 3200 range but that's been expected with break in.

 

[Formidilosus]

The question I always put out for people to judge on their own is - if cleaning a bbl does not harm and helps with long term bbl life and accuracy, why leave a bbl with fouling that could even possibly and potentially cause harm, effect accuracy, and affect bbl life?

Because it doesn’t hurt barrels to not clean, and mainly because what not cleaning does is result in extremely stable barrel life, MV, and absolutely static zero retention.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, I'm gonna try this with my 22gt. No more cleaning and drop powder to 32.5gr and see how long it holds together accuracy and velocity wise. Currently is shooting really well, 80eldm at 3150-3180 range is consistent 5 shot groups 1/4 to 1/3 moa on paper at 300y. It did speed up to 3200 range but that's been expected with break in.

I’m interested in what you find. How close is the bullet to lands? And how close to pressure are you now?

Also, you really need to shoot a 30 shot group now, then when you believe it has lost precision, you can look back and see if your 5, 10, whatever round groups are out of that 30 shot ES.

 

[khuber84]

I’m interested in what you find. How close is the bullet to lands? And how close to pressure are you now?

Also, you really need to shoot a 30 shot group now, then when you believe it has lost precision, you can look back and see if your 5, 10, whatever round groups are out of that 30 shot ES.

Jumping 40k, I'm prob 1gr or 65fps Below psi. I'll have shoot a 30 round group and see what it does.

 

[bbell]

Quick question. If the gun is going to be in the safe for long periods of time between use would you clean it? I’m thinking months to a year. I’m curious about long term corrosion when it isn’t being used regularly.

 

[Wrench]

Guys that can shoot the difference between clean and dirty are totally different than the focus of this place. We don't shoot 20# guns with 2oz triggers and 36x scopes with eternity to squeeze a shot.

Does it make a difference....sure. is the difference something you're capable of shooting? If you measure 3 digits from the decimal and the first number in never even a 2.......well if that's you you wouldn't ask.

I will bet if you call any barrel maker they have more damaged barrels with mid life round counts that came from poor cleaning practices than no cleaning.

 

[Article 4]

Because it doesn’t hurt barrels to not clean, and mainly because what not cleaning does is result in extremely stable barrel life, MV, and absolutely static zero retention.

It can hurt a bbl. It will absolutely affect accuracy.

Because it doesn’t hurt barrels to not clean, and mainly because what not cleaning does is result in extremely stable barrel life, MV, and absolutely static zero retention.

static zero retention in a rifle bbl? Ok teach me what that is (in 20+ year of bbl technology and rifle building I have never heard someone use that term with bbls) grinders. Yes. Even erectors in a scope but not often and with no measurable data to support it.

Please explain.

 

[khuber84]

It can hurt a bbl. It will absolutely affect accuracy.

static zero retention in a rifle bbl? Ok teach me what that is (in 20+ year of bbl technology and rifle building I have never heard someone use that term with bbls) grinders. Yes. Even erectors in a scope but not often and with no measurable data to support it.

Please explain.

He means absolute minimal condition change affecting rifle zero/poi shifts. There's never a state of significant change due to cleaning, just an evolution(or lack there of) of the dirty fouled bore.

 

[Formidilosus]

It can hurt a bbl. It will absolutely affect accuracy.

Again- you are stating something you admit you have never personally proven.

static zero retention in a rifle bbl? Ok teach me what that is (in 20+ year of bbl technology and rifle building I have never heard someone use that term with bbls) grinders. Yes. Even erectors in a scope but not often and with no measurable data to support it.

Please explain.

It means that after about 50-100 or so shots, a rifle that is assembled correctly, with a scope that works, zeroed, and it never needs to be rezeroed with that same lot# of ammo until the barrel is replaced.

The green 223 above hasn’t changed zero a single click from its original 77gr TMK ammo at about round 200-300, until I cut the barrel down at around 14,000’ish and added a suppressor, and I believe that was a .2 mil adjustment. Then its shots the same zero since then until I swapped stocks out a few weeks ago.
The 308 shown above held the same zero for the original ammo for over 4,000 rounds until swapped scopes.

The 6XC has had the same zero from round 30’ish to now, which is nearing 900, etc, etc.

 

[Formidilosus]

He means absolute minimal condition change affecting rifle zero/poi shifts. There's never a state of significant change due to cleaning, just an evolution(or lack there of) of the dirty fouled bore.

Precisely- thank you.

 

[Article 4]

He means absolute minimal condition change affecting rifle zero/poi shifts. There's never a state of significant change due to cleaning, just an evolution(or lack there of) of the dirty fouled bore.

He means absolute minimal condition change affecting rifle zero/poi shifts. There's never a state of significant change due to cleaning, just an evolution(or lack there of) of the dirty fouled bore.

Adding any amount of material at varying thickness to a chamber or barrel is a condition change. Every time you fire a round you are adding fouling. The more you shoot, the more you add.

IME and in the experience of just about any bbl builder you ask, including me, build up of fouling affects pressure. Inconsistent pressure affects accuracy.

He means absolute minimal condition change affecting rifle zero/poi shifts. There's never a state of significant change due to cleaning, just an evolution(or lack there of) of the dirty fouled bore.

it is well documented and well understood that latent unburned powder causes fouling. If it didn’t, no one would ever clean a rifle bbl. As such the more you shoot the more fouling we create. Over time that fouling can become hard and crusty.

Adding intermittent and irregular layers of powder residue does change conditions. It also creates more pressure therefore creating POI shift and lessening accuracy. Or can even on extreme cases affect jump which affect accuracy. There is no science to the contrary. Especially in The chamber.

In the experience of just about any bbl builder you ask, including me, build up of fouling affects pressure. Inconsistent pressure affects accuracy.

Again. If cleaning has no downside. And there is a potential of downside in NOT cleaning. Why not clean.

 

[Formidilosus]

In the experience of just about any bbl builder you ask, including me, build up of fouling affects pressure. Inconsistent pressure affects accuracy.

You mean a bunch of guys that haven’t tested their theories?

 

[Article 4]

You mean a bunch of guys that haven’t tested their theories?

300 MM guns in the country. 400,000 bbls produced per year. Hundreds of comp shooters, Military snipers, and an entire industry that cleans to maintain accuracy and consistency should all stop cleaning? Seems like a good sample set of testing to me.

I’ll keep cleaning my bbl thanks. Peace out!!

 

[TaperPin]

The target doesn’t lie - if accuracy is ok, I don’t see any harm. I don’t always agree with Form, but he is sharp and not afraid to challenge commonly held beliefs, and in this case he seems to have plenty of groups to back up his ideas.

I can see how too much of the benchrest world is forced into hunting at times, and this is an example of what has been proven to work in BR isn’t needed in hunting - shooting .2s, .1s and zeros after a handful of foulers isn’t helpful, when the rifle just has to shoot good enough.

I’m a cleaner and like tight throats, so it’s not for me, but our kids are not cleaners so it wouldn’t be helping them to have to clean all the time.

I wouldn’t mind hearing what throat dimensions are needed to extend cleaning intervals. A hand turned throat reamer could be used by almost anyone to loosen up the dimensions without taking the barrel off - that might be the ticket for Christensen Arms rifles.

 

[Formidilosus]

So at 400,000 bbls a year. Hundreds of comp shooters,

That mostly do what they were told is “right”? Though it is quite common to not clean now.

Military snipers,

The hyper cleaning generally stopped over a decade ago- lots of places are “clean when precision objectively decreases”, which may be never.

and an entire industry that cleans to maintain accuracy and consistency should all stop cleaning? Seems like a good sample set of testing to me.

Appeals to authority is a fallacy- saying “everyone does”, but no one has tested it, isn’t a great leg to stand on.

I’ll keep cleaning my bbl thanks. Peace out!!

Neat. Who said that you shouldn’t? What was addressed was your statement that is incorrect, and has no evidence for it.

 

[Lawnboi]

I bet there’s more people that don’t actually clean.

Lots of hunters think running the boresnake through or a patch loop of hoppes doesn’t all.

 

[Wrench]

IME and in the experience of just about any bbl builder you ask, including me,

Who are you?

 

[Jason Snyder]

I did see one instance where cleaning greatly affected accuracy. It was a suppressed AR15 with a 12” barrel. It was grouping like a shotgun at 50 yards. We swapped optics, removed the suppressor, etc with no change.

Unsure of what else to try in the moment I cleaned the bore. It returned to shooting 2 MOA. I wouldn’t have believed it had I not seen it firsthand.

 

[atmat]

IME and in the experience of just about any bbl builder you ask, including me,...

What I do know through my own experience...

In the experience of just about any bbl builder you ask, including me,...

But theeeeeeen:

I have never run that test and not sure anyone has...

 

[PathFinder]

I have one data point to add.
My 6UM is now at 215 rounds and has never been cleaned. Mostly N570. No change in accuracy. Can't speak for velocity, it hasn't had a chrony on it since 100 or so. I anticipate more of the same and will likely never clean it. I'll probably have it sectioned when it gets pulled for a new one.

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