Carbon Arrow Construction (calling all engineers and anyone else who knows what I'm talking about)

[Colorado385]

Can somebody please educate me on what makes a good carbon arrow? Why do some carbon arrows seem more brittle than others? Is there a tradeoff with spine consistency and strength? What's the benefit of adding a layer of aluminum to the carbon? Does a thick-walled arrow make a practical difference?

 

[Brendan]

I can answer a couple questions.

A good carbon arrow will have good spine consistency, good straightness, combined with durability at the weight you're targeting.

There are different carbon formulations, and different carbon layup techniques that will deliver different results. But, the details of these are often proprietary, and in reality it makes more sense to look at data on how they perform in the real world (e.g. - practical real world experience on a Black Eagle rampage vs. an Easton Axis, or measured spine consistency and straightness).

A thick walled arrow will in general be heavier and more durable.

Aluminum (at least historically) gave better spine and straightness consistency, but the problem is durability - they bend.

My opinion - don't overthink it. In general I think using a good 5mm all carbon arrow and building appropriately delivers the "best" overall hunting arrow you can build.

 

[Zac]

Most carbon arrows are made in the same factory by overseas workers that roll the carbon into a long tube. Arrows are then sorted based mostly on straightness. Easton is the only company that does not have a wrap and roll exclusive option. Easton uses a mandrel of sorts to pull their shafts through. The purpose of this is better circular concentricity.

Carbon is put together with different resins and higher and lower modulus types of carbon. I believe the higher the modulus the lighter and more rigid. Lower modulus is heavier and more flexible. This is how you end up with different weights yet similar spines.

Aluminum anywhere in the shaft helps with consistency. Aluminum does not flex in the same manner as carbon and can be fired in any sort of circular rotation with similar loading and flexion. However aluminum is less durable than solid carbon and can bend and fracture much easier.

You have to know the application you intend on using before you start to explore all these variables. I would suggest calling a manufacturer that can walk you through the process.

 

[dkime]

Can somebody please educate me on what makes a good carbon arrow? Why do some carbon arrows seem more brittle than others? Is there a tradeoff with spine consistency and strength? What's the benefit of adding a layer of aluminum to the carbon? Does a thick-walled arrow make a practical difference?

Carbon shafts are 70% epoxy and 30% carbon, what makes a "good" carbon arrow has more to do with the factory environmental conditions of the cure time, the stability of the processes, the consistency of the mandrels, and how long the mfg has been in business. Most carbon shafts are made from a high modulus carbon which is why they are significantly more brittle than other shafts. The benefits to a higher modulus carbon would be what others have mentioned, the companies can make a stiffer shaft without the extra wall thickness. Less wall thickness means less material used, and less time during the layup of the product. Both decrease cost. There is no tradeoff between spine consistency and strength. Consistency is simply controlling the OD of the shaft and the materials being utilized. A thicker wall thickness (displayed by larger OD in the finished product) will have a stiffer spine than a thinner wall. The benefit to adding a layer of aluminum is that aluminum tubes are DOM (drawn over mandrel) meaning they are extremely consistent in terms of mfg processes and do not have a seam to indicate a stiff side vs a weak side. What this does is it then allows for the layup processes to occur over the same mandrel the aluminum was drawn over (or one that very close. Thick-walled shafts make an enormous difference in durability. Let me know if theres anything I missed

 

[Colorado385]

This is awesome. For a given spine, Is there a tradeoff between consistency and weight (i.e. are high modulus, lighter shafts more or less consistent than low modulus, heavier shafts?) Does Easton's carbon manufacturing process impart better spine consistency than a "wrap and roll" process? I think it's Victory that talks about a 90 degree carbon...what does that mean?

Like everything in archery, I'm assuming there are tradeoffs and I just want to understand what tradeoffs I'm making by choosing a higher/lower modulus carbon all other things being equal. I've never nock-tuned and maybe I should, but I'm looking for an arrow that will go where I point it at 60yds with a BH screwed on the end of it (of course assuming the bow is tuned and I can shoot).

 

[dkime]

This is awesome. For a given spine, Is there a tradeoff between consistency and weight (i.e. are high modulus, lighter shafts more or less consistent than low modulus, heavier shafts?) Does Easton's carbon manufacturing process impart better spine consistency than a "wrap and roll" process? I think it's Victory that talks about a 90 degree carbon...what does that mean?

Like everything in archery, I'm assuming there are tradeoffs and I just want to understand what tradeoffs I'm making by choosing a higher/lower modulus carbon all other things being equal. I've never nock-tuned and maybe I should, but I'm looking for an arrow that will go where I point it at 60yds with a BH screwed on the end of it (of course assuming the bow is tuned and I can shoot).

I don't know of a single company that "rolls" their shafts, to my knowledge every one uses a mandrel wrap process unless something is pultruded. Once shafts are wrapped around a mandrel they are then ground to size. 90deg wrap means that the carbon fiber prepreg ta[e is laid on 90deg to the centerline of the shaft......just like every other company out there. Don't get too caught up in marketting buzzwords. Most folks don't actually understand the difference between High and Low modulus, but High modulus carbons sure does sound nice in an advertisement. Nock tuning requires an unimaginable degree of shooting abilty to see the difference. If you want to test, simply hang a piece of floss at 3yards on bale, see how many times in a row you are able to split the string. Once you are able to do that 5 times in a row, try it with a different shaft. This is the degree of shooting that is required for nock tuning to have any significant impact. Nock tuning isnt required to get BHs to hit where you point them at 60, just getting a moderately decent tune is all that is required. Bareshaft at 20, pick a good quality head and let her rip. Let me know if you try the floss trick and how many times you can split it.

 

[Billy Goat]

I think Easton uses a pultrusion.

Most of the good arrows are sorted anyways.

I don't have anything worthwhile to add to much of what is said. I have found nock tuning to be time well spent for me. It's just a matter of how much time you want to invest in it, and you need to be able to shoot good enough to make it worthwhile. I don't know if I do, but in my head it helps, so for me it's worth the effort.


And aluminum bends, to me the marketing is you get the best of both worlds with an aluminum/carbon, in my experience you just as well shoot all aluminum. They still bend almost as easy as a straight aluminum, and are almost as heavy. The ACC is a great target arrow, but I don't care to hunt with them.

 

[Colorado385]

I don't know of a single company that "rolls" their shafts, to my knowledge every one uses a mandrel wrap process unless something is pultruded. Once shafts are wrapped around a mandrel they are then ground to size. 90deg wrap means that the carbon fiber prepreg ta[e is laid on 90deg to the centerline of the shaft......just like every other company out there. Don't get too caught up in marketting buzzwords. Most folks don't actually understand the difference between High and Low modulus, but High modulus carbons sure does sound nice in an advertisement. Nock tuning requires an unimaginable degree of shooting abilty to see the difference. If you want to test, simply hang a piece of floss at 3yards on bale, see how many times in a row you are able to split the string. Once you are able to do that 5 times in a row, try it with a different shaft. This is the degree of shooting that is required for nock tuning to have any significant impact. Nock tuning isnt required to get BHs to hit where you point them at 60, just getting a moderately decent tune is all that is required. Bareshaft at 20, pick a good quality head and let her rip. Let me know if you try the floss trick and how many times you can split it.

Thanks this is helpful. I'm specifically trying to cut through marketing so we're aligned in that regard. When it comes to spine consistency, is there a difference between a wrapped shaft and pulltruded shaft?

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Though the intracacies of the manufacturing process are interesting, as a practical matter, the objective parameters you as a consumer have available to inform your decision are the arrow's advertised straightness tolerance, weight tolerance, and dimensions (inside/outside diameter). Other than those three parameters, everything used to describe a particular arrow is mostly marketing fluff (e.g., "high modulus carbon," "premium carbon," "dual spine weight forward," "hard-hitting jackhammer guaranteed to punch through an elephant scapula").

Spine tolerance is arguably as/more important than straightness and weight tolerance, but Black Eagle is the only manufacturer I'm aware of that makes any numerical claim about spine tolerance. Most manufacturers claim (without numerical context) that their arrows are "spine grouped/sorted" or "spine aligned," but only BE actually puts a number to their spine consistency (±0.010" deviation across a dozen arrows).

Most arrow models are offered in multiple straightness tolerances (often ±0.001", ±0.003" and ±0.006") with price increasing as straightness improves. The straighter the better, but what you truly "need" is debatable and relative to your individual shooting ability.

I don't pay any attention to the advertised weight tolerance of the shaft. They're all good enough that it's not going to appreciably affect the finished arrow. Consistency of total arrow weight can be tweaked by weight-sorting other components when assembling the arrows.

I believe that a smaller diameter arrow with thicker wall tends to be more durable than a larger diameter arrow with thinner wall. But I've never seen any actual data from destructive testing (e.g., ultimate bending/shear/compression/impact strengths), so this belief is just based on a combination of engineering intuition and anecdotal experience.

 

[dkime]

Thanks this is helpful. I'm specifically trying to cut through marketing so we're aligned in that regard. When it comes to spine consistency, is there a difference between a wrapped shaft and pulltruded shaft?

In terms of real world applications I’m going to risk putting my foot in my mouth and say no, even if your static spine has a variation of +/-.005 for a range of .010” The average joe isn’t going to be able to shoot the difference. Someone may point out that most world records get shot with “X style” shaft which are made a certain way but when folks are getting paid to shoot a certain brand and contracts are involved I don’t know if that’s necessarily a fair comparison. If you want to really dive deep into this kind of stuff I’d suggest watching every youtube video Dave Cousins has ever taken part of as well as podcasts. There’s not a ton of technical archers here in the US but in my opinion Dave is probably the GOAT just based on winnings in every style. Another good resource for you would be taking a look at the Pro Archery Series in Europe. The folks who shoot that stuff are the at the pinnacle of technical archery.


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[5MilesBack]

The toughest arrows I've ever shot were a weaved carbon arrow shaft, and they also just happen to be the most consistently accurate I've shot as well. I look for weaved options for more durable arrows because I like to shoot stuff.......any kind of "stuff".

In regards to dkime's opinion of what's needed to nock tune......it's not too difficult to shoot arrows at whatever distance (I prefer further out because things show up more easily), and just see for yourself what each arrow is doing. I guess if you're a shooter with no consistency then ya........it would be tough to determine what's actually happening with each arrow. For me, it's pretty easy. The arrow either hits behind my pin, or there's something wrong with it.

 

[Colorado385]

Good stuff. Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I was unaware that BE put a number on the spine consistency; I've had trouble in the past with Rampage durability (splintering) but I liked the Spartan system (solid component connection, decent weight for me) and I've still got some laying around so I'll knock the dust of them and see how they fly. I've been shooting Axis for a few years now and like them but the weight in a 300 spine is higher than I'd like (I'm drawing 28"/70lbs). I've got some 340 Axis cut to 26" that Archer's Advantage tells me is just barely "optimal" so I'll give those a try and see how they tune. Sirius conveniently sells a 3 arrow test pack so I've ordered some of those to try as well in that I plan to run with modest FOC (10-15%). I don't have enough time to try everything so I'll see what this yields and hopefully find a winner in there.

 

[Zac]

You can buy single shafts from Lancaster.

 

[Ocnandmtns]

Wow, I’m impressed with the knowledge being dropped here. I’ll throw another Q into the ring: knock tuning already has skeptics, including myself. Is it correct to assume that it would be less effective or even pointless with carbon/aluminum shafts than with all carbon?

 

[dkime]

Wow, I’m impressed with the knowledge being dropped here. I’ll throw another Q into the ring: knock tuning already has skeptics, including myself. Is it correct to assume that it would be less effective or even pointless with carbon/aluminum shafts than with all carbon?

No, you are manipulating the concentricity of the nock to the shaft as well, not just the dynamic reaction.


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[Planopurist]

No, you are manipulating the concentricity of the nock to the shaft as well, not just the dynamic reaction.


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Or at least manipulating the aggregate of those things. I’ve found nock tuning to be a beneficial tool to my overall process. I do it as a bare shafts thru paper, then again if I get “outliers” after fletching and shooting a bit.


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[dkime]

Or at least manipulating the aggregate of those things. I’ve found nock tuning to be a beneficial tool to my overall process. I do it as a bare shafts thru paper, then again if I get “outliers” after fletching and shooting a bit.


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My skepticism toward nock tuning really has come from seeing zero fliers in my setup process. I know that all of you guys aren’t doing it for the sake of doing it but It makes me wonder what is going on that so many folks have chosen to pursue this as a tuning methodology. I really don’t doubt that it works for all of you guys, like I said I know people aren’t really wasting their time if they didn’t find it beneficial. Last year alone I put 4 dozen D6 bare shafts through paper and had zero issue getting them all to bullet hole once I had settled on a tune that I liked. If I ever do get an outlier through paper it’s normally always shooter induced in my case. Like I mentioned above, a guy can learn a ton about his grip by doing that grip tuning/floss experiment. When I’m working with a new bow I can make a bare shaft POI shift (and nock end condition shift) just by manipulating grip pressure, let alone grip position. Digressing, not trying to turn this is to nock tuning thread.


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[Planopurist]

I put 4 dozen D6 bare shafts through paper and had zero issue getting them all to bullet hole once I had settled on a tune that I liked. If I ever do get an outlier through paper it’s normally always shooter induced in my case.
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What’s your arrow and bow setup?


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[dkime]

What’s your arrow and bow setup?


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Last year I bought and owned 5 different bows.

VXR
EVO NXT
Elite Ritual
Prime Black 5
RX3

All tuned up with a 27” (28 finished) Day Six HD 300 50gr Centric and either a 100 or 125gr head. All shot great through paper, and then point weight was manipulated based on vertical line tuning at 50. However, I’ve also been able to bareshaft 400 spine shafts with 275up front out of a 70# setup, which is why I think paper is a coarse tuning tool and I rely strictly on grouping at 80 to tell the tale.

Having said all of that and getting back to helping the OP out. I’ve also done this with Axis shafts, GT Pierces, and even spent a little bit of time with a dozen VAPs. I’ve worked with carbon mfgs in a past life for stabilizer projects and had a chance to play with and feel the difference between most of these materials from a front bar and back bar perspective. I spent so much time thinking about this stuff that it made me realize there was very little return on my mental investment. Shoot the dozen you’ve got until you break or lose em all. Go buy something new, rinse and repeat. Variety is the spice of life my friend. I shoot what I shoot now because they work best for me and my hunting style


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[Brendan]

My skepticism toward nock tuning really has come from seeing zero fliers in my setup process. I know that all of you guys aren’t doing it for the sake of doing it but It makes me wonder what is going on that so many folks have chosen to pursue this as a tuning methodology. I really don’t doubt that it works for all of you guys, like I said I know people aren’t really wasting their time if they didn’t find it beneficial. Last year alone I put 4 dozen D6 bare shafts through paper and had zero issue getting them all to bullet hole once I had settled on a tune that I liked. If I ever do get an outlier through paper it’s normally always shooter induced in my case. Like I mentioned above, a guy can learn a ton about his grip by doing that grip tuning/floss experiment. When I’m working with a new bow I can make a bare shaft POI shift (and nock end condition shift) just by manipulating grip pressure, let alone grip position. Digressing, not trying to turn this is to nock tuning thread.


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I'm with you. Never had to nock tune yet. I have a pretty OCD build process though.

Also, getting back to some of the initial questions in the thread, I think worrying about arrow manufacturing processes and materials and layup techniques is pretty worthless in this day and age, Especially if you're talking about hunting. And this is coming from a usually OCD Engineer. (Unless you're just doing it for the enjoyment and learn a little, I get that...)

It takes a little time, but It's really not that hard to pick an arrow and components that meets your desired specs and build it such that it'll outshoot pretty much anyone anywhere. Nock tuning: maybe I'll change my tune when I finally build/buy a shooting machine, but I can't tell the difference with my shooting ability and I'd say I'm better than average.