Can It Be Fixed?

[NRA4LIFE]

My own personal conspiracy theory is that the aerial spraying by DARPA is responsible for the decimated mule deer, pronghorn, forest grouse, and sage hen populations. It may be from another source of poison but it's definitely the result of large scale poisoning. I have no evidence for this other than watching the eastward creep of these animal populations. In the late 1980s and early 1990s there were grand populations of all of these animals in the entire state. Great mule deer numbers could be found in very northern Idaho, along the Snake and Salmon rivers around Lewiston, and across the breadth of Southern Idaho. Pronghorn populations were in the thousands from Boise to Island Park and from Salmon to the Owyhees. Sage hens were very abundant all across southern Idaho and it was a favorite September activity in Northern Idaho to drive the forest roads and shoot Blue and Ruffed grouse. Within the next 10 to 15 years, all of these populations, from Idaho's forested northern border to its southern border with Utah and Nevada and from Oregon to Wyoming, were destroyed. Montana and Wyoming's populations of these animals held out for an additional 5 to 10 years but now their wildlife populations are being destroyed, from west to east. Elk, whitetails, and moose seem to be fairly immune from whatever poison has been distributed so they planted wolves to decimate those populations.

Lots of folks on here will probably say that I'm an idiot or a fool for saying this, but I'm from northern Idaho and live in south eastern Idaho and I have no other way to explain how the alpine mule deer herds in Boundary County and the Salmon River mule deer herds in Central Idaho and the desert mule deer herds in southern Idaho all tanked in the mid 1990's. I hunted pronghorns north of the Salmon River in the late 1980's where they no longer exist. I've lived in and hunted pretty much everywhere in Idaho over the past 40 years except very southwestern Idaho and watched it happen. The landscape looks pretty much the same now as it did 40 years ago, but these animal populations are all but gone.

Exactly how did this occur? Chemtrails perhaps? DARPA is nothing but a research arm. They really don't do much. All the DARPA programs I worked on, and that is many, were nothing but research to provide them with information to contract things out for bid.

 

[crossone]

Exactly how did this occur? Chemtrails perhaps? DARPA is nothing but a research arm. They really don't do much. All the DARPA programs I worked on, and that is many, were nothing but research to provide them with information to contract things out for bid.

I don't know. I do know that a couple of months ago, someone asked Bobby Kennedy about the Chemtrails spraying and what, if any, were the possible effects on human health. Bobby Kennedy replied that his group believes that DARPA is responsible for at least some portion of it.

Of course, as soon as he said it, Project Mockingbird jumped into action and immediately got 50 news orgs to say he was lying.

I saw it and said, "Oh, that's why the mule deer, pronghorns, sage hens, forest grouse, and Jack rabbit populations plummeted statewide at exactly the same time and now Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado's are too!"

 

[NRA4LIFE]

You realize, there is no such thing as chemtrails, right?

 

[crossone]

Wasn't there a nasty winter 92/93?

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Yes, there was a nasty winter around then, 92-93, or 93-94. Ok, fine. A bad winter will batter a population and can be statewide, from Bonners Ferry to Franklin. Bad winters don't affect the mule deer near Lewiston. For those deer, a bad winter is a foot of snow for a month. (The elevation of Lewiston is 745-feet). But they pretty much died out as well. Populations were decreasing all through the late 80s around there as well and dropped dramatically during the mid 90s.

 

[braydencase7]

Yes, there was a nasty winter around then, 92-93, or 93-94. Ok, fine. A bad winter will batter a population and can be statewide, from Bonners Ferry to Franklin. Bad winters don't affect the mule deer near Lewiston. For those deer, a bad winter is a foot of snow for a month. (The elevation of Lewiston is 745-feet). But they pretty much died out as well. Populations were decreasing all through the late 80s around there as well and dropped dramatically during the mid 90s.

I don't know i wasn't alive then nor live there. I just know it takes a long time for the population to bounce back. I think the deer are just now bouncing back from 2016 winter, 1 more nasty winter I can see how things snowball.

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[PORK]

Habitat. Habitat. Habitat.

Over-winter survival is the single most important factor impacting herd size and health. It's a double whammy on mule deer when the available winter habitat has been reduced in size and then the corridors to get to that habitat have been disrupted.

I'm all for predator control but a case could be made that vehicle collisions cause more mortality on the winter range than cats or wolves.

Agree 100%.

The only predator control our ungulates really need is from the 2 legged predators.

 

[bluetick78]

Wasn't there a nasty winter 92/93?

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Yes. Killed 80 ish % of the mule deer in Idaho and Wyoming. Probably Montana too.

 

[wytx]

Agree 100%.

The only predator control our ungulates really need is from the 2 legged predators.

We hunt an area that has very controlled harvests due to being mostly private land and our numbers are way down. Predators are a main reason but I do agree can't grow deer without the right habitat.
Mt lions and coyotes can and do take large numbers of deer, year round.
Even with good habitat predators can make a big dent in your population.

 

[MallardSX2]

Predators and Cars likely kill WAY more animals than hunters could ever dream of killing in the US. Coyotes kill 70% of fawns in my home state.

I don't really buy into the fact that 2 legged predators are the leading cause in decline of mule deer populations. Mule deer are pretty stupid though....Maybe humans are slightly more of a threat to them than whitetail deer. If mule deer acted more like whitetails, there would be a lot more of them.

 

[PORK]

We hunt an area that has very controlled harvests due to being mostly private land and our numbers are way down. Predators are a main reason but I do agree can't grow deer without the right habitat.
Mt lions and coyotes can and do take large numbers of deer, year round.
Even with good habitat predators can make a big dent in your population.

Agree 100%.

 

[crossone]

You realize, there is no such thing as chemtrails, right?

Yes. And i know that covid came from a wet market, Lee Harvey acted alone and Anna Nicole Smith married for love

 

[cacklercrazy]

Option 4. All your discussion mates seem to think the existence of deer is guaranteed by God. It's not true. Allowing the human population to grow without eradicating predators at a faster rate is an act of extermination against deer and the hunting way of life. I know you chose predators too but i want anyone reading this to realize that if your state has recently banned the hunting of bears or lions, your government hates you and wants you gone. And if you're talking about colder climates or higher altitude the loss of cold adapted genetics can make herd recovery nearly impossible.

Your spot on, totally about everything!

 

[Fatcamp]

In many areas, it’s the wolves. Get rid of them and the mule deer will do better. In other areas it’s mother nature. And you’re not going to change that. Brutal winters are the number one killers of deer and antelope. It’s been talked about many times before but elk numbers don’t seem to have an impact on deer. There are areas where fish and game drastically reduced elk numbers in an effort to increase deer and it did not work. Where I hunt the deer and elk do not winter in the same areas for the most part so that is a non-factor.

If I had to pick one factor that would improve habitat, especially on wintering grounds it would be a reduction in livestock grazing. You will not change that either.

Across the western United States the elephant in the room is the denuding of public lands by cattle.

 

[AHayes111]

Across the western United States the elephant in the room is the denuding of public lands by cattle.

Cattle numbers were much higher and the grazing methods much more damaging in the 60's and even 80's than today. Cattle can cause plenty of issues, but the downturn in mule deer is not one of them. On the Custer forest near me cattle numbers have been cut by close to 10,000 AUM's since the 90's and the deer numbers have gone in the crapper since then.

 

[Indian Summer]

Cattle numbers were much higher and the grazing methods much more damaging in the 60's and even 80's than today. Cattle can cause plenty of issues, but the downturn in mule deer is not one of them. On the Custer forest near me cattle numbers have been cut by close to 10,000 AUM's since the 90's and the deer numbers have gone in the crapper since then.

Do ranchers abide by the rules of animal unit months? Do they remove cattle from grazing allotments when they are supposed to. No. They abuse the allowance of a stragglers. And the majority of that land is crucial wintering grounds. It’s a factor.

 

[Blowdowner]

Across the western United States the elephant in the room is the denuding of public lands by cattle.

I think this depends on how harsh the landscape is naturally. I don't mind grazing in places that are viable enough to be completely covered in head high brush otherwise.

 

[AHayes111]

Do ranchers abide by the rules of animal unit months? Do they remove cattle from grazing allotments when they are supposed to. No. They abuse the allowance of a stragglers. And the majority of that land is crucial wintering grounds. It’s a factor.

Not always and those that are not in compliance need to get there act in gear and suffer some consequences.
Grazing practices and complacence with the rules is generally much better today than in the past.

 

[Macegl]

I don’t want to be a downer, but no it can’t be fixed. At least not if you’re trying to get back to the 50’s 60’s 70’s era. That was a point in time where a whole lot of things coalesced to create a mule deer factory.

Here’s some of what it what it would take to get it back:

Fire. To reset plant succession at a wide enough scale to get back to ideal deer conditions, you would literally have to burn almost everything. This is not feasible because we have no stomach for fire as a general society, not to mention the million dollar cabin/lodge crowd who are either in the legislature or have a lot of influence there. And we now have cheatgrass and other cool season invasive annuals that invade after fire which leads me too…

Weed control. The early seral forbs that mule deer need are being out competed by invasive annual grasses. This wasn’t the case in the 50’s and 60’s. The ability to control invasive annuals without impacting the establishment of desired communities does not currently exist. Anyone have a magic wand?

Grazing. Believe it or not we probably never would have had the magical mule deer heyday without intense grazing. If by some miracle we could burn everything, and we found a magic wand that would allow us to re-establish desirable plant communities without invasive annual grasses, without grazing pressure we would eventually end up with a grass dominated plant community. A substantial level of grazing would be needed to shift the plant community to browse.

Time. Plant community change doesn’t happen overnight. From settlement to peak mule deer numbers took from the 1890’s to the 1950’s. Settle in…

Predator control. This is another one where I don’t think the 50’s and 60’s are a realistic expectation. It would take poison, a lot of poison that is illegal to get predators to that level again. I do think that to increase mule deer numbers it will take a reduction in predator populations.

re-route or transform transportation. The interstate highway system began in 1956 under the “Federal highway act of 1956” and was proclaimed completed in 1992. That in combination with increased traffic on non interstate highways has probably cutoff more mule deer migrations than any other barrier. Look at any of the collar studies, migrations end at highways and freeways. It doesn’t matter if there is habitat on the other side if it’s not accessible. In my opinion this is where we can actually make a difference, but it is very costly.

Convert housing back to winter range. Again, not happening.

Elk. I once prepared some Animal Unit Month calculations (the amount of feed required for one 1000 lb animal for one month) for a wildlife group comparing pre elk deer numbers on a unit in southern Utah to post elk. And the equivalent amount of animals on the unit were about the same.
I’m not saying elk are bad, I’m just saying we need to be realistic in our expectations.

Weather. We are in a dry cycle, this could change but is not in our control.

I didn’t type this all this out to depress or discourage. I actually think we can maintain and grow deer populations. But it drives me insane when people say that cutting buck deer tags is going to solve the problem. WE’VE TRIED THAT FOR 30 YEARS.