Bushing or FL Resizing Die? Help a Newb

[SloppyJ]

So I need some guidance. I've been reloading under a year and have successfully gone through load development for exactly one rifle, my 30-06. I have no one that I know that reloads so I don't really have anyone to ask. I've picked up a 280AI and I need to order some dies. There are so many thoughts on this subject and I'm just trying to wrap my head around it. This gun is for hunting and just some light range sessions. I haven't encountered this with my 30-06 yet because I've started with new brass and got lucky with a accubond load off the bat that I dialed in within 30 rounds.

I have a lee turret press and I bought the ultimate 4 die set for that one. It includes a FL resizing die, collet neck sizing die, seating die, and crimp die. I'm trying to figure out the best practice for resizing the body and neck. It seems like FL resizing brass ensures smooth feeding but is hell on your brass. Not to mention the slight bit of efficiency from the case being blown back out to fit the chamber.

My first plan was to just use the collet neck sizing die and experiment with that until things get hard to chamber. At that point I was going to record that dimension and setup my FL sizing die to bump the shoulder 0.002". My head is spinning from all of the options with the bushing dies, body dies, and even the type S dies. Maybe my terminology is off, or even worse my whole way of thinking but when I read about full length resizing, I expect that one die to size the body and the neck in one go. But I'm reading about people using a FL resizer to bump the shoulder back and then using a neck sizing die on top of that. Maybe that's so they can set the neck tension that they are wanting?

Hell, at this point maybe it's just easier to FL resize after every firing. I'm not out there throwing 100s of rounds down range every weekend so my 50 Norma cases should last me a while even if that's the best route to take. I'm also not worried about chasing groups down to thousandths of an inch but I was beyond happy when I was able to dial in my 30-06 to around 0.60" consistently over 3 different range trips. That rifle is what got me into reloading because it is the pickiest gun I've ever owned. Right now I like the Forster set and I'd like to try something with a micrometer on the seating die.

I appreciate any tips in getting me steered in the right direction and I do recognize that it's a very elementary reloading question but so far in my short stint here, everyone has been extremely helpful and drama free. There aren't many boards left like this. Thanks guys!

 

[ResearchinStuff]

They're all valid options.

Norma brass is decent, so going to a full length sizing die with neck bushings will probably give you good results. With crap brass (Remington, etc) bushing dies actually hurt concentricity. Your gun might have a preference in the neck tension, but figuring that out costs time and $.

The collet dies seem like a pita, and I can't trust my kids to not pull the press handle while I'm not around, so they're a no go for me.

Full length sizing dies work, and work pretty well. If you're not trying to get a huge # of loads on your brass, they'll get the job done for sure. Their drawbacks are well documented elsewhere.

For my 300 and 6.5 creed I'm using type s full length sizing dies with bushings (sac bushings are better than redding), with forester micrometer seating dies.

I really, really like the sliding sleeve seating dies, they make very straight loaded ammo (<0.004" total indicated runout loading fully progressive).

My 223 set up is an rcbs full length sizing die and a lee seating die. Don't see myself upgrading those as I'm getting adequate results on target.

 

[Wrench]

The lee collet is a secret weapon. It is always concentric....it can take a couple tries to get it set, but once it's done, results are typically good.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I only use FL dies and have never had any issues in doing so. FL sizing brass doesn’t “work the hell out of it” either. If you know how to use your equipment.

There’s zero chance you’ll ever see a neck sizing die used in my house.

I only use RCBS FL die sets and produce accurate ammo.

 

[Ernie]

I NEVER just neck size my brass.
I always Full-Length resize my brass.
Following the instructions on your dies, will likely result in you sizing your brass more than it needs to be.
There are a lot of good videos out there on this subject

 

[seand]

My first plan was to just use the collet neck sizing die and experiment with that until things get hard to chamber. At that point I was going to record that dimension and setup my FL sizing die to bump the shoulder 0.002".

That is a very sound approach. Often folks go and set up the FL die to bump a set amount based off measured brass that is once fired. While that’s better than following the die manufacturer directions, it still sizes brass more than it needs. It takes multiple firings to get the brass to a close fit to chamber length. Once the length is established, then the best method IMO is to full length resize with the 0.002-0.003 bump each time. If you don’t have a lee collet die you can just use a std FL die backed off a bit to do the same thing allowing the brass to grow until it fits the chamber. Sometimes the brass will grow in length when you use a backed off FL die due to body construction which throws guys for a loop - but it it’s too long just adjust the die down until it fits the chamber. Easy.

I’ve got all kinds of dies and probably one of the methods for the straightest ammo imo is the Redding body die to size body and setback shoulder followed by the lee collet.
There is a lot of arguing over bushing dies, but imo they don’t make the straightest ammo, at least not the way most guys use them. You could argue using them with a mandrel is best, but you can argue a honed FL die is even better. Really though for a hunting rifle it’s probably all overkill.

Honestly if I was you I’d just get a std FL Redding 2-die set. I typically like the std Forster FL dies and benchrest seater but I don’t think Forster makes them in 280ai, might be wrong. They will most certainly make awesome ammo. I wouldn’t spend the extra for the Redding type s set for your use - although I have that exact die set it’s for a specific/different purpose.

 

[Mack84]

I would say, when you’re able to, experiment with all of them. But to start with keep it simple and consistent.

I have a neck sizer for my 6ppc br. After several firings the bolt gets tougher to close. So I bought a body die and reset the body and shoulder each 3rd or 4th firing. Neck sizing is as easy as it gets. So if you don’t mind the effort do another route.

My 22-250 build donuts real bad real fast, I kinda thought it was the bushing FL sizer but maybe not. I’ll revisit that someday maybe with an inside the neck reamer/trimmer. Don’t be afraid of the process.

My process has developed to FL sizing and then setting the neck with a mandrel .002 less than bullet diameter. Right or wrong that’s just where I’m at.

There’s not a one all do all that I’m aware of yet, tell me if there is

 

[SDHNTR]

I’m no pro, but I’ve been down this rabbit hole too. What I’ve narrowed things down to is this…

Always FL resize as a hunter. .001-002” bump to the shoulder.

My straightest ammo comes from a Redding type S, with the gold nitride? bushing, and the upgraded floating carbide expander ball, well lubed. With a bushing sized so that you can feel the expander just barely run back up through the neck. Or no expander at all, but you better use top quality brass unless you want to neck turn, I don’t.

Second straightest, but yet indiscernible on a target, and if I were to start all over again, I’d buy nothing but Forster Benchrest dies. Easy and effective. Just set the stem so the expander ball is as high up in the die as you can. If needed polish the expander ball as smooth as possible. Grip it and rip it.

Collets, expander mandrels, body dies, none of that is wrong, but it all involves extra steps and extra parts that aren’t neeeded, imo.

 

[SloppyJ]

I’m no pro, but I’ve been down this rabbit hole too. What I’ve narrowed things down to is this…

Always FL resize as a hunter. .001-002” bump to the shoulder.

My straightest ammo comes from a Redding type S, with the gold nitride? bushing, and the upgraded floating carbide expander ball, well lubed. With a bushing sized so that you can feel the expander just barely run back up through the neck. Or no expander at all, but you better use top quality brass unless you want to neck turn, I don’t.

Second straightest, but yet indiscernible on a target, and if I were to start all over again, I’d buy nothing but Forster Benchrest dies. Easy and effective. Just set the stem so the expander ball is as high up in the die as you can. If needed polish the expander ball as smooth as possible. Grip it and rip it.

Collets, expander mandrels, body dies, none of that is wrong, but it all involves extra steps and extra parts that aren’t neeeded, imo.

Thank you for responding. One of your points is exactly what confuses me. You stated to FL resize but only bump the shoulder a few thou.

When I read about people FL resizing I'm thinking that it's all the way which puts it back to sammi spec per the die. But what I assume you're recommending is to thread out the die enough to only bump the shoulder a few thou. As in, use the comparator to measure the fired case vs unfired and determine how much to back the die off.

I'm glad you brought up the Forster stuff because I'm seriously leaning that way and think I might just go ahead and order it.

 

[SloppyJ]

I only use FL dies and have never had any issues in doing so. FL sizing brass doesn’t “work the hell out of it” either. If you know how to use your equipment.

There’s zero chance you’ll ever see a neck sizing die used in my house.

I only use RCBS FL die sets and produce accurate ammo.

Thank you for the response! Are you adjusting the die seating depth or running it per the instructions when you reload?

 

[SloppyJ]

Once the length is established, then the best method IMO is to full length resize with the 0.002-0.003 bump each time. If you don’t have a lee collet die you can just use a std FL die backed off a bit to do the same thing allowing the brass to grow until it fits the chamber.

Does the collet die actually adjust the shoulder though or are you saying to just use the FL die to neck size until the bolt closes hard and then do a proper FL resize to adjust the shoulder

 

[SloppyJ]

The lee collet is a secret weapon. It is always concentric....it can take a couple tries to get it set, but once it's done, results are typically good.

Thanks for bringing this up. I'd love to hear how you utilize the collet die and any setup tips you have. Their instructions on screwing it in until it touches then another 2 full turns seems odd to me. What are your metrics for checking that youve gotten it setup correctly?

 

[seand]

Does the collet die actually adjust the shoulder though or are you saying to just use the FL die to neck size until the bolt closes hard and then do a proper FL resize to adjust the shoulder

No the collet die doesn’t size the shoulder at all. Neck size with a lee collet, or backed off FL die and shoot until brass grows to fit chamber. Then set FL die (std, body die, or bushing) for proper shoulder bump.

 

[SDHNTR]

Thank you for responding. One of your points is exactly what confuses me. You stated to FL resize but only bump the shoulder a few thou.

When I read about people FL resizing I'm thinking that it's all the way which puts it back to sammi spec per the die. But what I assume you're recommending is to thread out the die enough to only bump the shoulder a few thou. As in, use the comparator to measure the fired case vs unfired and determine how much to back the die off.

I'm glad you brought up the Forster stuff because I'm seriously leaning that way and think I might just go ahead and order it.

That is correct. I use a headspace comparator to measure shoulder bump back .002”. That is still considered FL resizing. My point is use a FL resize die. Not a neck sizing die. FL resizing means that the die is sizing down the entire case, neck, shoulders and body in any amount, all in one pass. It doesn’t necessarily mean all the way back to SAAMI specs. A neck sizing die only touches the neck otoh.

Yes, with a Redding type S and the right bushings and expander I can produce measurably straighter ammo than with a Forster Benchrest die, but that does not correlate into measurably smaller groups in my experience. The Type S might also work the brass slightly less and make it last longer, but for hunting and not high volume precision target shooting I think the difference is negligible. Forsters are just simple and produce good results with minimal fuss.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I adjust my seating die to get my desired COAL. I only load rifle rounds and I don’t crimp my rounds.

 

[Ernie]

The goal, as mentioned earlier, is NOT to return to SAAMI specs but resize your brass according to your chamber. Go for a shoulder bump of 2 thou, and you will be good to go. Check out some or Erik Cortina's videos

 

[SloppyJ]

The goal, as mentioned earlier, is NOT to return to SAAMI specs but resize your brass according to your chamber. Go for a shoulder bump of 2 thou, and you will be good to go. Check out some or Erik Cortina's videos

I've seen some of his videos and the terminology was tripping me up which is part of the reason I made this thread. I think I have it straightened out in my head now. Appreciate the mention of those videos,

 

[Ernie]

SloppyJ,
The more you spend time with this, the more it will make sense.
Ideally, having someone locally (who knows what they are doing) to mentor you is the best.
Even short range benchrest shooters (100/200 yard) FL resize their brass today.
Besides Erik, Winning In The Wind, F-Class John, Ultimate Reloader, and Speedy Gonzales, and Jack Neary are some good ones to watch on YouTube.

Some of the info will be overwhelming...Just let that go.
You are not trying to be a competitive shooter.
You will see consistent themes with all of these guys, of what they do and don't do. I wouldn't crimp your necks either.
The Hornady comparator is a good tool. Even if you uses standard FL dies, and have more than 2 thou of neck tension, your rifle will probably still shoot great.
Keep learning and asking questions

 

[SloppyJ]

SloppyJ,
The more you spend time with this, the more it will make sense.
Ideally, having someone locally (who knows what they are doing) to mentor you is the best.
Even short range benchrest shooters (100/200 yard) FL resize their brass today.
Besides Erik, Winning In The Wind, F-Class John, Ultimate Reloader, and Speedy Gonzales, and Jack Neary are some good ones to watch on YouTube.

Some of the info will be overwhelming...Just let that go.
You are not trying to be a competitive shooter.
You will see consistent themes with all of these guys, of what they do and don't do. I wouldn't crimp your necks either.
The Hornady comparator is a good tool. Even if you uses standard FL dies, and have more than 2 thou of neck tension, your rifle will probably still shoot great.
Keep learning and asking questions

Appreciate the words of wisdom and encouragement Ernie. The barrier of entry is very high with reloading not only with equipment but with the knowledge and terminology. I enjoy the challenge and puzzles that it presents though. It was all worth it when I settled in on a good load for my '06 and look forward to working on this 280AI and an old 308 I have been playing building with spare parts. The independence it affords in not relying on factory ammo and being able to shoot exactly the load you want is pretty darn cool.

 

[Ernie]

I typically use precision reloading dies or custom dies for a lot of my reloading.
Here is two instances of regular dies. One is a HS precision HSP, chambered in 22–250.
Dan and I used new Winchester brass. I typically use premium brass, but I had this on hand.
3-shots at 100 yards


The other is a Remington XP 100, with a Remington takeoff barrel, in 308 Winchester.
I had some mixed fired 308 Winchester brass from Hornady that a friend gave me. I resized it with a regular RCBS full length resize die.
H-4895 and 155 grain A-Max’s
3-shot group at 100 yards



Then on Steel as I was doing drop confirmations at 500 yards. That is 10 inch and 5 inch steel.
Although I prefer to use competition dyes, and I usually use the best quality brass, you can shoot some really good groups with regular brass, and standard dies.