Bushing or FL Resizing Die? Help a Newb

[wind gypsy]

Forster FL sizing dies with necks honed to 0.0025" under loaded ammo neck diameter (to minimize how much brass is worked) is my preferred route at the time being. Cheaper than a bushing die and my $ is on the ammo being straighter too.

 

[Wrench]

Thanks for bringing this up. I'd love to hear how you utilize the collet die and any setup tips you have. Their instructions on screwing it in until it touches then another 2 full turns seems odd to me. What are your metrics for checking that youve gotten it setup correctly?

The 2 turns is to slide the collet into the sleeve forcing the collet to close. The way I do it is to start at about 1.5 turns and check tension and move from there.

I do clean and polish the collet on my dies to slick them up a bit.

Neck tension can be increased by turning the mandrel.....a drill and emery cloth will work for this.

As for concentricity.....the only way you'll get equal to or more concentric is to ream and neck turn with quality bushing dies.

The collet always sizes to the mandrel. If the brass is .003" heavy on one side.....it still makes the brass center on the mandrel. A fl or bushing die will have a tight side because the .003 didn't stay on the outside.....it was forced to the inside.

 

[Wrench]

Forster FL sizing dies with necks honed to 0.0025" under loaded ammo neck diameter (to minimize how much brass is worked) is my preferred route at the time being. Cheaper than a bushing die and my $ is on the ammo being straighter too.

I really like forster and whidden dies myself. They certainly seem to have much more attention to detail in the finish. Their micrometer seater is my favorite as well.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I've been down this rabbit hole, and in my opinion anything past running fired cases through a FL sizing die (yep, expander ball and all) and bumping the shoulders back .002" is past the point of diminishing return. Anything more is wasted time in 99% of hunting rifle and average shooter combos.

 

[Ernie]

I've been down this rabbit hole, and in my opinion anything past running fired cases through a FL sizing die (yep, expander ball and all) and bumping the shoulders back .002" is past the point of diminishing return. Anything more is wasted time in 99% of hunting rifle and average shooter combos.

Well said

 

[Wrench]

I'm anti expander ball on custom chambers. Makes plenty of sense on production guns.

 

[SDHNTR]

I'm anti expander ball on custom chambers. Makes plenty of sense on production guns.

Agreed. This is a good compromise and is about where I’ve arrived too. If I’m gonna shoot past 500 yards, I want all the precision I can muster, which means a custom gun and extra care given to my reloading process. In those guns, I use Type S dies as I described above. For my more ordinary guns and normal hunting ranges normal inexpensive dies are sufficient.

I just pulled out a bunch of ammo off my shelf that was loaded different ways and not surprisingly, below are the TIR results:

1. Cheapo RCBS FL die: .003-.006” runout
2. Forester BR FL die: .002-.0045”
3. Redding Type S: .0005-.002”

This is why if I could only choose one, Forster. I don’t think most folks could shoot the difference between 2 and 3.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Truthfully runout is not even a blip on my radar. I haven’t seen it make that much of any difference at the measurements you are talking about.

I watched a video recently where this was tested at I think 600 yards and there was negligible difference unless the bullet was so skewed in the case that it was visible to the eye by holding the cartridge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[SDHNTR]

Truthfully runout is not even a blip on my radar. I haven’t seen it make that much of any difference at the measurements you are talking about.

I watched a video recently where this was tested at I think 600 yards and there was negligible difference unless the bullet was so skewed in the case that it was visible to the eye by holding the cartridge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes, it’s highly debatable how much it matters. I do it for the sake of confidence alone.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Yes, it’s highly debatable how much it matters. I do it for the sake of confidence alone.

Understandable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[wind gypsy]

I'm anti expander ball on custom chambers. Makes plenty of sense on production guns.

Do you say that because of possibly induced runout?

 

[Lawnboi]

If your cartridge is in a die made by SAC, that’s what Iv moved to.

It basically becomes a bushing die and mandrel that dosnt have the problems of bushing dies. Best yet, I can now size, expand and decap in one single pull. Results have been as good or better than many of the other types of dies Iv tried.

My second choice as of now would be a honed FL die with a mandrel step after.

Iv had issues with expanders and full length sizers, pulling out shoulders, and bushing dies creating a doughnut, which seems to happen eventually. Some of these problems can be solved with more time on the bench but that gets old quick. I want the most efficient way that I can make the best brass possible and so far, I think the sac is a better mouse trap in that regards. Nice to be able to anneal, size, trim and load. Saves me a significant amount of time decapping, running the mandrel and dealing with neck doughnuts.

 

[wind gypsy]

If your cartridge is in a die made by SAC, that’s what Iv moved to.

It basically becomes a bushing die and mandrel that dosnt have the problems of bushing dies. Best yet, I can now size, expand and decap in one single pull. Results have been as good or better than many of the other types of dies Iv tried.

My second choice as of now would be a honed FL die with a mandrel step after.

Iv had issues with expanders and full length sizers, pulling out shoulders, and bushing dies creating a doughnut, which seems to happen eventually. Some of these problems can be solved with more time on the bench but that gets old quick. I want the most efficient way that I can make the best brass possible and so far, I think the sac is a better mouse trap in that regards. Nice to be able to anneal, size, trim and load. Saves me a significant amount of time decapping, running the mandrel and dealing with neck doughnuts.

But they are so damn expensive!

I still need to buy dies for 6 and 6.5 creedmoor and eyed those SAC dies. Not sure I can do it.. How is the SAC decapper with mandrel deal different than an expander ball?

Could buy honed forster 6 and 6.5 dies plus probably forster micrometer seaters for both for less. Really just need to get a dillon already then decap, size (without expander), and mandrel with one pull of the handle.

 

[SDHNTR]

SAC dies are the Gucci option for sure. I’ve tried, I just can’t justify the expense.

I’ve never had a donut with Redding Type S and nitride bushings. Heard of em, watched out for em, never seen any sign of one…. Curious at what point you’ve seen donuts form?

 

[JGRaider]

Been reloading since the '80's so I've tried most of them. Opinions obviously vary on this subject. For the past 10 years or so I used rifle specific brass, and don't even switch it around between my Tiikka T3x and CTR in 6.5CM. All brass is rifle specific, period. I use a simple Lee collet neck sizing die every time until the brass chambers very snugly. At that point I will use a Redding body die to bump back the shoulders .002 as several mentioned here. I also anneal my brass every 3 firings or so just because I'm anal about stuff like that. My "system" produces very accurate ammo and has for years. No matter what anyone says, FL sizing, and shoulder bumping for that matter, works your brass way more than a simple neck sizing die. Unlike the bushing neck sizing dies, the Lee collet die doesn't need lube to do it's job, and it sizes the whole neck, not just part of it.

 

[Lawnboi]

But they are so damn expensive!

I still need to buy dies for 6 and 6.5 creedmoor and eyed those SAC dies. Not sure I can do it.. How is the SAC decapper with mandrel deal different than an expander ball?

Could buy honed forster 6 and 6.5 dies plus probably forster micrometer seaters for both for less. Really just need to get a dillon already then decap, size (without expander), and mandrel with one pull of the handle.

The expander obviously expands on the out stroke on the sac, it does so right as the brass leaves the bushing. I think the beauty in it lies in how adjustable you can be with bushing mandrel combinations to not cause the problems, atleast Iv had in traditional FL dies. My bushing sizes down .004 under loaded diameter (before spring back) and I use a .002 under mandrel to give me neck tension around .003 when all said and done. Making it so the expander is doing very little work. In other fl dies I had some problems with it pulling the shoulder out, I havnt had that with the sac die. All I know is it makes better brass than any other die Iv used. When I got the dies I didn’t have the expanders, I couldn’t tell a difference when swapping from only decapping to the expander. Also bonus is the slickness of the die, and that it sizes nearly like a small base die.

I actually plan to buy another creedmoor die eventually so I don’t have to monkey with swapping stuff around, but a bonus is I can load 22,6 and 6.5 on the one die.

As far as better than a honed fl die with an expander you can adjust, I’m not sure there would be much of a difference. I went this way to be a little adjustable, and streamline things as much as possible. One pull of the press is all my brass sees now, and I don’t plan on going back.

@SDHNTR
Iv not seen doughnuts be a problem till around 5 loadings. At that point they were obvious with a naked eye. Happened with both junk brass and premium. I’m also annealing after each firing. A tapered bushing, can help fix the problem partly. I personally will avoid a traditional bushing die if at all possible at this point, and am confident enough in my load process thay if needed I’ll just order a honed FL sizing die an add a mandrel step to my process.

Iv also got some lee collet dies. But that’s going backwards in my goal to make the best brass with the least messing around in the loading room.

 

[wind gypsy]

The expander obviously expands on the out stroke on the sac, it does so right as the brass leaves the bushing. I think the beauty in it lies in how adjustable you can be with bushing mandrel combinations to not cause the problems, atleast Iv had in traditional FL dies. My bushing sizes down .004 under loaded diameter (before spring back) and I use a .002 under mandrel to give me neck tension around .003 when all said and done. Making it so the expander is doing very little work. In other fl dies I had some problems with it pulling the shoulder out, I havnt had that with the sac die.

Curious if you think the shoulders were pulling out just because the amount of work the expander was doing with over sized necks? Such that with honed dies with expander there wouldn't be a problem because they aren't doing much work?

 

[Gila]

That is correct. I use a headspace comparator to measure shoulder bump back .002”. That is still considered FL resizing. My point is use a FL resize die. Not a neck sizing die. FL resizing means that the die is sizing down the entire case, neck, shoulders and body in any amount, all in one pass. It doesn’t necessarily mean all the way back to SAAMI specs. A neck sizing die only touches the neck otoh.

Yes, with a Redding type S and the right bushings and expander I can produce measurably straighter ammo than with a Forster Benchrest die, but that does not correlate into measurably smaller groups in my experience. The Type S might also work the brass slightly less and make it last longer, but for hunting and not high volume precision target shooting I think the difference is negligible. Forsters are just simple and produce good results with minimal fuss.

I do the same thing but with Hornady FL match grade dies. The right bushing size is important for a neck tension of about .002 to .003. Completely back off the crimp on the bullet seater. But then I am only running LDF bullets. Definitely need headspace and bullet comparators to work with the best pair of calipers you can afford. I really like my SS Mitutoyos.

 

[Lawnboi]

Curious if you think the shoulders were pulling out just because the amount of work the expander was doing with over sized necks? Such that with honed dies with expander there wouldn't be a problem because they aren't doing much work?

I think it’s somewhat both. I need to get my hands on a honed forester and may for 3006 eventually. Their expander balls sound like they are .001 under, to get what I desire I’d probably have to squeeze the neck more than I’d prefer. I like that .003 area of tension. Running .002 over firings and sometimes mixed up lots left me with a lot of pretty soft seats. I’d probably revert to an expander mandrel step with them again with a .002 under carbide mandrel

The sac is also a stout unit, the decapper/expander is not only held by a thin threaded rod, solid piece of carbide being squeezed by a collet, in a taper.

 

[Ernie]

Appreciate the words of wisdom and encouragement Ernie. The barrier of entry is very high with reloading not only with equipment but with the knowledge and terminology. I enjoy the challenge and puzzles that it presents though. It was all worth it when I settled in on a good load for my '06 and look forward to working on this 280AI and an old 308 I have been playing building with spare parts. The independence it affords in not relying on factory ammo and being able to shoot exactly the load you want is pretty darn cool.

SJ,
Are your questions answered?
If not shoot me a email. ernieemily at yahoo dot com
I won't be able to send or receive PM's until sometime early next week or a tad later on.