Burden of Proof - 2nd Amendment

[bpctcb]

I'd contact a civil rights attorney as you now have actual damages.

Unless you’re dead or have serious bodily injury then you’re most likely wasting your time & money.

BP

 

[KodaJax]

Thanks for the comments/suggestions. I did provide my full SS# on the background check. I will apply for the UPIN. I submitted a challenge to the FBI with a set of my fingerprints. Looks like I need to file VAF, Voluntary Appeal File, to get a UPIN. Since I already submitted a challenge form I may give that a couple weeks to play out. Then I’m definitely submitting for the UPIN either way. Maybe that will help with CBP and TSA too?

 

[ODB]

How much international travel to suspect locations do you do?

 

[KodaJax]

How much international travel to suspect locations do you do?

Not much. Last year was India twice, the UAE, Singapore, France, and Norway. Most of my travel this year will be in North America. Losing TSA Pre-Check with the Global Entry revocation won’t be fun. Definitely worth my time to get that sorted as I fly several times a month.

 

[ODB]

Not much. Last year was India twice, the UAE, Singapore, France, and Norway. Most of my travel this year will be in North America. Losing TSA Pre-Check with the Global Entry revocation won’t be fun. Definitely worth my time to get that sorted as I fly several times a month.

Ok. I ask because two years ago another guy I know of had his GE revoked out of the blue. He ended filing a FOIA request via his washingnton-based lawyer and essentially found nothing. The only one thing they could possibly think of is employees of an outfitter he used in Pakistan were found guilty of something. Other than that - zero. And no GE so far.

 

[def90]

Curious if anyone else has run into this situation. I purchased a rifle at the Sheep Show and it was shipped to a major retailer for me to pick up. Did the background check and was denied. The retailer cannot provide a reason, as they aren't given one. They can't give me a copy of my application or denial, but would let me take a picture of a reference number on the denial.

Next step was an application for a firearm purchase permit through my local county sheriff. Filed it and will take up to 3 weeks to hear back.

Logged on to the ATF website to figure out how to correct whatever bad data they have. First step, request the reason for the denial. Submitted it - came back within 2 hours. All it said was there was someone with a similar name to mine that has a disqualifying record. Referred to a US Code that stated being convicted of a crime punishable by a year or more...blah blah blah. Doesn't say where, when, what crime, nothing. But says I can "challenge" the reason for disqualification by submitting supporting records. Okay, don't know what the crime was, where it was, when it was, etc. Next step, to the local state patrol office to be fingerprinted so that I can mail those to the FBI along with a request that they investigate the disqualifying records against my prints. No idea how long that will take.

I have never committed a crime, been charged with a crime, nor been convicted of a crime. I have a very common name (one database had 20,537 people listed with my exact first, middle, and last name). Really surprised that the name isn't tied to my SS# or any other identifying information. Even more surprised that I have the burden to prove that I am entitled to exercise my 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. I guess they technically didn't revoke that - but made it impossible to lawfully acquire arms at this point.

Two days later, I received notice that my Global Entry has been revoked. I guess Federal agencies can connect quickly, but couldn't actually use the fingerprints, facial recognition, or eye biometrics they already have from me to determine if I am the person with the disqualifying record. No reason given again. But I can submit documentation for reconsideration of the disqualifying criteria (whatever one they used). Tied to Global Entry was TSA Pre-Check, of course, and Clear combined with TSA Pre-Check. Should make travel a lot more difficult - and I travel 3 weeks out of each month.

Starting to get really concerned about flying to the NWT and back in July with a rifle for my sheep hunt.

I guess I was naive. Never thought the burden of proof would be shifted to me to prove or disprove an allegation that hasn't even been provided to me in order to acquire a rifle. How easy the government can impose its will.

Dave

Did you provide your SSN on the 4473? Putting your SSN on there should prevent you from being associated with someone else if you have a common name in your area.

A lot of people get denied for having the same name thing.

 

[dribeerfeht]

Apply for a UPIN and move on. Or, if you have money to spend, hire an attorney to have the data expunged from the point if entry into the database.

 

[Stalker69]

All this crap, and they let known criminals ( some really bad ones) walk into this country across the border with no problems. Fake names, no real id's. And here we have to go through crap like this just to prove who we are. I went through a simular thing, cop misspelled my name on a ticket. Years later they were trying to arrest me for using fake name ( ALIUS ) with same SSN. Luckily I kept all the paper work from the ticket, and lawyer found the miss spelled name on the ticket.

 

[deltadukman]

I second contacting your congressman’s office. My office works closely with our congressman and what all they can do and people they can contact can get all of this cleared up I’d bet. Our guy’s office staff is extremely helpful and pro 2A so I’m sure that helps.

 

[Rich M]

kiss getting into Canada goodbye.

Dont they still have a vax mandate?

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Did you provide your SSN on the 4473? Putting your SSN on there should prevent you from being associated with someone else if you have a common name in your area.

A lot of people get denied for having the same name thing.

Thanks for the comments/suggestions. I did provide my full SS# on the background check. I will apply for the UPIN. I submitted a challenge to the FBI with a set of my fingerprints. Looks like I need to file VAF, Voluntary Appeal File, to get a UPIN. Since I already submitted a challenge form I may give that a couple weeks to play out. Then I’m definitely submitting for the UPIN either way. Maybe that will help with CBP and TSA too?

 

[NRA4LIFE]

Dont they still have a vax mandate?

No. Not for about a year and change.

 

[gabenzeke]

I have had this happen when crossing international borders, but never a firearm. Apparently someone with my name is on a list. They can't give me any details and even though I've tried googling how to fix it, the solution seems like more of a pita than it's worth since it just holds me up 30 minutes or so when crossing. If it affected my 2a, then I'd probably look harder at fixing it.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[tony]

I don’t know if this even remotely similar. Twice I purchased firearms and was denied/placed on hold. One from my home state of WV and one in Ohio. The WV case was resolved in 15-20 minutes. This a brand new S&W shield gen 1 9mm, to give you an idea of how long ago it was. 10 years at least.
The second time was 3-4 years ago in Ohio, from a dealer. I got a hold. Dealer told me ATF had a week to respond back or the rifle automatically mine no matter if they gave me a yes or no. ATF called back in a few days with an approval.
In WV if you hold a valid CHL that’s your background check. The form is optional, or the dealer fills out something. I bought a rifle few years back and filled one out as I have no record and nothing to hide.

 

[rayporter]

Canada will not look kindly on your entry with this hanging over your head. at the very least expect a full search if in a vehicle. flying ??? i dont know how that would work. maybe turn you around when you land?? then again, out in the bush they might just laugh and send you on your hunt.

 

[Squincher]

Providing your SSN should have ensured you didn't get mixed up with someone else. Sounds like someone dropped the ball.

 

[Unckebob]

Really no help, but a few years ago we were on a family vacation in glacier national park. My dad got pulled over by a park cop for a having a kayak that was over length or something. Without any explanation whatsoever, they told him to step out of the vehicle, handcuffed him, threw him in their cop car, and drove him to the flathead county court house in Kalispell which is a good distance away. The whole family was confused and the officer would not give any information about anything whatsoever.

Turns out there was a guy with a residence like 300 miles away, with a similar name as my dad, who had a warrant for his arrest. Had they double checked with a SSN, driver license number, or any number of other personal identifiers, it would have been very clear that they got the wrong guy. I still think he should have sued them up one side and down the other.


I work in the medical field, and nothing at all is ever done or confirmed without a minimum of AT LEAST 2 unique personal identifiers.

At a bare minimum, they usually check the date of birth before arrests like that.

 

[KodaJax]

Curious if anyone else has run into this situation. I purchased a rifle at the Sheep Show and it was shipped to a major retailer for me to pick up. Did the background check and was denied. The retailer cannot provide a reason, as they aren't given one. They can't give me a copy of my application or denial, but would let me take a picture of a reference number on the denial.

Next step was an application for a firearm purchase permit through my local county sheriff. Filed it and will take up to 3 weeks to hear back.

Logged on to the ATF website to figure out how to correct whatever bad data they have. First step, request the reason for the denial. Submitted it - came back within 2 hours. All it said was there was someone with a similar name to mine that has a disqualifying record. Referred to a US Code that stated being convicted of a crime punishable by a year or more...blah blah blah. Doesn't say where, when, what crime, nothing. But says I can "challenge" the reason for disqualification by submitting supporting records. Okay, don't know what the crime was, where it was, when it was, etc. Next step, to the local state patrol office to be fingerprinted so that I can mail those to the FBI along with a request that they investigate the disqualifying records against my prints. No idea how long that will take.

I have never committed a crime, been charged with a crime, nor been convicted of a crime. I have a very common name (one database had 20,537 people listed with my exact first, middle, and last name). Really surprised that the name isn't tied to my SS# or any other identifying information. Even more surprised that I have the burden to prove that I am entitled to exercise my 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. I guess they technically didn't revoke that - but made it impossible to lawfully acquire arms at this point.

Two days later, I received notice that my Global Entry has been revoked. I guess Federal agencies can connect quickly, but couldn't actually use the fingerprints, facial recognition, or eye biometrics they already have from me to determine if I am the person with the disqualifying record. No reason given again. But I can submit documentation for reconsideration of the disqualifying criteria (whatever one they used). Tied to Global Entry was TSA Pre-Check, of course, and Clear combined with TSA Pre-Check. Should make travel a lot more difficult - and I travel 3 weeks out of each month.

Starting to get really concerned about flying to the NWT and back in July with a rifle for my sheep hunt.

I guess I was naive. Never thought the burden of proof would be shifted to me to prove or disprove an allegation that hasn't even been provided to me in order to acquire a rifle. How easy the government can impose its will.

Dave

In case anyone else has to deal with this, thought I’d share the end result. I filed a challenge with the FBI with a set of my fingerprints. Also submitted a Voluntary Appeal File and a separate and new set of fingerprints with the FBI. Two different forms and processes. It took about five weeks and I had my Challenge upheld and shortly after that I also had the VAF completed and was issued a Unique Personal Identification Number. With those I was able to get my rifle, but had to do the background check again since more than 30 days had elapsed since the denial.

I found out that a failed firearms background check is cause for revocation of Global Entry and the agencies coordinated that within 24 hours. Of course, they don’t coordinate reinstatement even though the challenge was upheld so I have not been able to get CBP to act at all.

Happy to at least have the rifle for the July NWT hunt

 

[MTN Humper]

Glad you got the rifle but that is absolutely ridiculous. Thanks very much for the update.

 

[Gunnersdad49]

At a bare minimum, they usually check the date of birth before arrests like that.

I was pulled out of my truck at gunpoint, multiple cars arrived, turns out another dude lived in the same town, same first and last names, same middle initial, but about ten years younger than me. Totally different physical description. Took about an hour for the cops to tell me what was going on. Other dude had felony warrants. I get delayed on 4473s every time if I don't provide a SSN, and about 50% of the time that I do provide it.