Burden of Proof - 2nd Amendment

KodaJax

FNG
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
15
Curious if anyone else has run into this situation. I purchased a rifle at the Sheep Show and it was shipped to a major retailer for me to pick up. Did the background check and was denied. The retailer cannot provide a reason, as they aren't given one. They can't give me a copy of my application or denial, but would let me take a picture of a reference number on the denial.

Next step was an application for a firearm purchase permit through my local county sheriff. Filed it and will take up to 3 weeks to hear back.

Logged on to the ATF website to figure out how to correct whatever bad data they have. First step, request the reason for the denial. Submitted it - came back within 2 hours. All it said was there was someone with a similar name to mine that has a disqualifying record. Referred to a US Code that stated being convicted of a crime punishable by a year or more...blah blah blah. Doesn't say where, when, what crime, nothing. But says I can "challenge" the reason for disqualification by submitting supporting records. Okay, don't know what the crime was, where it was, when it was, etc. Next step, to the local state patrol office to be fingerprinted so that I can mail those to the FBI along with a request that they investigate the disqualifying records against my prints. No idea how long that will take.

I have never committed a crime, been charged with a crime, nor been convicted of a crime. I have a very common name (one database had 20,537 people listed with my exact first, middle, and last name). Really surprised that the name isn't tied to my SS# or any other identifying information. Even more surprised that I have the burden to prove that I am entitled to exercise my 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. I guess they technically didn't revoke that - but made it impossible to lawfully acquire arms at this point.

Two days later, I received notice that my Global Entry has been revoked. I guess Federal agencies can connect quickly, but couldn't actually use the fingerprints, facial recognition, or eye biometrics they already have from me to determine if I am the person with the disqualifying record. No reason given again. But I can submit documentation for reconsideration of the disqualifying criteria (whatever one they used). Tied to Global Entry was TSA Pre-Check, of course, and Clear combined with TSA Pre-Check. Should make travel a lot more difficult - and I travel 3 weeks out of each month.

Starting to get really concerned about flying to the NWT and back in July with a rifle for my sheep hunt.

I guess I was naive. Never thought the burden of proof would be shifted to me to prove or disprove an allegation that hasn't even been provided to me in order to acquire a rifle. How easy the government can impose its will.

Dave
 

Geewhiz

WKR
Joined
Aug 6, 2020
Messages
2,562
Location
SW MT
Really no help, but a few years ago we were on a family vacation in glacier national park. My dad got pulled over by a park cop for a having a kayak that was over length or something. Without any explanation whatsoever, they told him to step out of the vehicle, handcuffed him, threw him in their cop car, and drove him to the flathead county court house in Kalispell which is a good distance away. The whole family was confused and the officer would not give any information about anything whatsoever.

Turns out there was a guy with a residence like 300 miles away, with a similar name as my dad, who had a warrant for his arrest. Had they double checked with a SSN, driver license number, or any number of other personal identifiers, it would have been very clear that they got the wrong guy. I still think he should have sued them up one side and down the other.


I work in the medical field, and nothing at all is ever done or confirmed without a minimum of AT LEAST 2 unique personal identifiers.
 
Joined
Oct 14, 2023
Messages
1,449
Location
Houston (adjacent) TX
Yep I know a guy in a similar situation. He had to jump through tons of hoops because a car he sold someone was used in a burglary and the lazy ass investigator just filed the case on him (due to name still being on the registration) instead of actually investigating. And yes the burden of proof was on him to show he didn’t commit the crime, have the case dropped and then get a special number assigned for the gun purchase.
 

Yoder

WKR
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
1,670
Really no help, but a few years ago we were on a family vacation in glacier national park. My dad got pulled over by a park cop for a having a kayak that was over length or something. Without any explanation whatsoever, they told him to step out of the vehicle, handcuffed him, threw him in their cop car, and drove him to the flathead county court house in Kalispell which is a good distance away. The whole family was confused and the officer would not give any information about anything whatsoever.

Turns out there was a guy with a residence like 300 miles away, with a similar name as my dad, who had a warrant for his arrest. Had they double checked with a SSN, driver license number, or any number of other personal identifiers, it would have been very clear that they got the wrong guy. I still think he should have sued them up one side and down the other.


I work in the medical field, and nothing at all is ever done or confirmed without a minimum of AT LEAST 2 unique personal identifiers.
Medical just wants to make absolutely sure they get PAID.
 
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
3,930
I am glad I have passed multiple background checks including and FBI background check. OP I am sorry to hear about your troubles. You might try to get your own background check in which you finger prints are taken. I bring this up as it may possibly be the fastest way to get the matter cleared up; if it works (I say this because you are unfortunately dealing with a dysfunctional bureaucracy).
 

Westernduck

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
177
Sorry I’m not any help, but I’m not surprised the government would be this way.

I’ve gotta guess on this very common name though. David J Smith? Lol

In all seriousness, I hope you get it handled and have a great sheep hunt this summer.
 
Joined
May 10, 2015
Messages
2,466
Location
Timberline
Next time put your middle name on the form. Highly unlikely to improbable someone will have all three namesnthe same as you.

Background checks are usually done through state agencies anyway that access those databases. Getting the feds involved - 👎
 

mt terry d

WKR
Shoot2HuntU
Joined
Jul 18, 2023
Messages
735
1787: And then we added "shall not be infringed"
and they bought it!!!!
 

Attachments

  • 1000_F_54675108_Bte9lXNcFVZ4uljvJCprUqOg0w7RjZ2k.jpg
    1000_F_54675108_Bte9lXNcFVZ4uljvJCprUqOg0w7RjZ2k.jpg
    185.6 KB · Views: 52

wesfromky

WKR
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
1,100
Location
KY
Keep seeing UPIN. What is it?
It's in the link - but tl:dr is a unique number you can add to a 4473 to help with approvals if you are denied because your info is close to a prohibited person or you have something in your background that might cause issue, but not prohibit you.
 

Dos XX

WKR
Joined
Dec 29, 2018
Messages
877
Really surprised that the name isn't tied to my SS# or any other identifying information.

Dave
Did you put your ssn on the 4473?

In the state I live in, we don't do background checks on gun purchases if the purchaser has a current conceal carry permit.
 

Yarak

WKR
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
425
Seen this happen to numerous people because of the same reason given as yours
Follow the advice on UPIN
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
932
Not much help, other than this happened to a very close friend of mine in an almost identical situation. I was with him at our other buddy’s (FFL) place when he did the 4473 and it got called in. Has a very common name like “ John Johnson”. He followed the federal process through to have his privileges/rights reinstated. It didn’t happen overnight but eventually everything went through and he’s been cleared to buy firearms ever since. No attorneys or legal threats, just followed the paperwork ATF told him to fill out.

Nothing on his record at the time other than traffic citations. Still amazes me in 2024 this can be happening (his happened over 20yrs ago).
 
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
629
Location
Montana
I'd be calling an attorney and my congressman if I were in your situation. On second thought, I'd make an office visit.
I agree, congressional visit to a pro 2a congress member will get this all cleaned up in a month. Bring an attorney would surely mean you’re serious aswell.
 
Top