Bullet design for modest hunting distance on all game

[Erussell01]

165 gr. Accubonds. Sounds like your rifle likes the 165 gr. Accubond. Trust me you need to look no further. It will open up close and expand nicely just as it will way out there, and retain a lot of it's weight. Great bullets that I have used on a lot of game. My grizzly bear in Alaska was one shot with a 140 gr. Accubond out of my 280AI.

A Partition is never a bad choice either, and the 165 gr. would work very well for you.

If you want to go to a mono bullet and your rifle shoots it, the 150 gr. Nosler E-tip would work great too.

I wish I could find E tips! I want to try them in my rifle for sure!

A grizzly with a 280AI! That's is awesome! I love the 280 AI and one day I'll have one for sure!

 

[Erussell01]

they have reliably been easy to find local to me... about every store that sells ammo has had .308 TA, probably the most consistently in stock besides the blue box cheaper federal, which i have a few boxes of as well... they are another one that have been accurate out of most rifles, so i'm buying some of that for "plinking" and building a pile of brass.... this is exactly why i'm getting this .308, it's been readily available through all of this recent BS, it and .223/556 have been the only readily available ammo, that made it attractive to me, and i have always avoided the boring, dated .308..... i have gained appreciation for it in many regards recently, it will be great for any animals i'll be rifle hunting, and will remain good at any ranges i will be shooting at critters personally, and mellow recoil.

with the current ammo/reloading supply issues, i have not had the freedom to shoot my hunting rifles as much as i want, the .308 i will be able to shoot, and shoot a good amount.... our creed has not had that effect, and i overpaid on reloading components so i could at least shoot some.... plan on mainly reloading as i build components/powder, but it's nice to have a reliably available factory ammo too.... lot easier right now than trying to run down reloading components that aren't saving any money vs factory ammo, and the time consumed shopping for primers or powder that are in stock is way better used behind a rifle getting better

The supply issue is really hurting my ability to tinker and plink. I lucked out and got a couple cases of 130gr hollow points to play with so I'm able to shoot recreationally and not burn all my good ammo. Then I can give the brass to my dad and he can cook me up stuff. He is a really "mellow" reloaded and often produces really accurate loads that are not anywhere near maxed on speed. He also loves old school bullets and getting him to load a poly tipped bullet is about like pulling teeth lol. I'm working on it though

 

[Erussell01]

It depends on whether the animal will be hard to recover if it runs. At the mild velocities generated by a 308, bullet performance was always good.

Man, I'd never considered them for bigger game but I love the way they shoot in my gun. I'll definitely give them a go if given the opportunity. I have 4 or 5 boxes left, but they're all 150s I think.

 

[Erussell01]

99% of people who post on rokslide (myself included) will never shoot anything far enough away to really need to worry about what bullet they use. Pick one that shoots well out of your gun and go hunt.

Yeah, I get that. Not being an avid rifle hunter, I just grabbed whatever was on the shelf zeroed for it and went hunting. I found the cheaper stuff like core lokt, American whitetail and federal nontypical to leave me wanting more in terms of accuracy and performance. I will try the classic blue box powershok again but may up the bullet weight and see if that's the ticket. 150s just didn't impress me but maybe I'm asking too much.

I'm not worried about how far, but rather how close. I want a bullet that can stick together if the shot is 5 yards or 50 yards. I have yet to recover an intact bullet other than the 2 ttsx bullets my wife used last year. Both broke shoulders and ended up on the off side hide.

I'm always trying to find a better mouse trap.
I know I'm an overthinker, but what else should I be doing at work all day?

 

[Erussell01]

You can close the thread with this statement. Pick a mono or bonded bullet and accept some meat loss or try for a very tight meat saver shot.

Man that would make things easier, but then how would I fill the void between my ears in the off season?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Man that's an awesome experience. And one heck of a bull man. Sounds like you might be sticking with the TA! I need to find more of them for sure! Would you hunt antelope with them?

Thank you very much and it was an incredible experience.

Given the accuracy out of my rifle and the reliable performance of the bullet, I would absoutely hunt deer and antelope with this round. Going back to what another guy already said, I'd rather lose a little meat than an entire animal.

I never shoot shoulders and have always taught my daughters (15 and 17 now) to shoot behind the shoulder if broadside, and line up on the the far front leg if quartering away. Neither have lost a whitetail yet (9/9) with .44 mag or muzzleloader.

 

[Erussell01]

Thank you very much and it was an incredible experience.

Given the accuracy out of my rifle and the reliable performance of the bullet, I would absoutely hunt deer and antelope with this round. Going back to what another guy already said, I'd rather lose a little meat than an entire animal.

I never shoot shoulders and have always taught my daughters (15 and 17 now) to shoot behind the shoulder if broadside, and line up on the the far front leg if quartering away. Neither have lost a whitetail yet (9/9) with .44 mag or muzzleloader.

That's awesome. My wife is 5 for 5 with a 7mm08, and 2 of 5 have been on shoulders. Of the 5, 2 dropped drt. But surprisingly the last doe made it 40 yards with a sizeable owy on her shoulder. If it weren't for the snow it would have been tough to find and it still was since she didn't start bleeding yet. I want my wife to start shooting the muzzleloader so I can take her elk hunting earlier in the season. Our MN muzzleloader season is too cold for her and she wouldn't have any fun. 44 mag, what kind of setup?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Roger that man and congrats on her success! IME muzzleloaders can deliver either really good or really bad blood trails depending on the bullet and time of year. I've hunted late season in Iowa for more than 20 years, and those furred up whitetails, especially the super fat does, sometimes don't bleed for a long ways if you don't get good expansion. The combination of fat, fur, and extreme cold can plug the entry/exit and freeze quickly.

I had really good luck with all lead bullets/sabots from an outfit in Canada called Precision Rifle (prbullet.com). They loaded easy and expanded and pancaked like a lead ball out to the farthest ranges I've shot (125ish). Last year I procrastinated after the elk hunt and ended up getting some Hornady SSTs because that's what Scheels had left. I was pleasantly surprised with their ease of loading, accuracy, and terminal performance on my daughters January buck.

The .44 mag was a single shot CVA break action. It would print 3" groups at 100 yards with Federal 240 grain JHP. The girls dropped two whitetails in their tracks with that rifle, one at 55 yards and the other at 109. Others were less than 50 yard recoveries with the longest shot being around 117.

 

[Erussell01]

Do you guys find that rifle hit deer generally don't bleed right away? The last 10 critters I've seen hit with a rifle, 1 bled right away but only made it 50 yards, 5 dropped in sight with little to no blood, of those 5, 2 were drt, 2 made small circles, and 1 was hauling ace when I made a helping follow up shot with my grandma's 270 to stop it crossing into the neighbors place. 1 of them had hair at impact and almost no blood the 30 yards it went in the thick brush. My instincts made me go downhill and I stepped on her before I saw blood. And 1 had just enough blood to find him in the snow, but man it was not a fun (albeit short) track job.

Maybe I'm asking too much of a bullet. After years and lots of critters shot with sharp sticks, I am used to good blood trails. I can only recall 3 archery deer in my life that had less than amazing blood trails, and of those 3 shot placement was the issue more than anything.

Would you say that's the same with rifles?
How much does shot placement impact blood trailing with a rifle? I have only seen 1 "bad" shot with a rifle (father in law hit a doe in the back back of the liver) and that's the doe I tipped over with grandma's 270 (on the run, a shot which would have made grandpa and grandma both very proud lol) so I don't have a ton of experience with tracking poorly hit deer. In most of my limited rifle experience, the deer haven't gone far, but are not easy to track without snow.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Do you guys find that rifle hit deer generally don't bleed right away? The last 10 critters I've seen hit with a rifle, 1 bled right away but only made it 50 yards, 5 dropped in sight with little to no blood, of those 5, 2 were drt, 2 made small circles, and 1 was hauling ace when I made a helping follow up shot with my grandma's 270 to stop it crossing into the neighbors place. 1 of them had hair at impact and almost no blood the 30 yards it went in the thick brush. My instincts made me go downhill and I stepped on her before I saw blood. And 1 had just enough blood to find him in the snow, but man it was not a fun (albeit short) track job.

Maybe I'm asking too much of a bullet. After years and lots of critters shot with sharp sticks, I am used to good blood trails. I can only recall 3 archery deer in my life that had less than amazing blood trails, and of those 3 shot placement was the issue more than anything.

Would you say that's the same with rifles?
How much does shot placement impact blood trailing with a rifle? I have only seen 1 "bad" shot with a rifle (father in law hit a doe in the back back of the liver) and that's the doe I tipped over with grandma's 270 (on the run, a shot which would have made grandpa and grandma both very proud lol) so I don't have a ton of experience with tracking poorly hit deer. In most of my limited rifle experience, the deer haven't gone far, but are not easy to track without snow.

My elk is the only one I've killed with a high power. There was fur and blood where I shot him, and it was painted pretty good on the right (exit) side of the trail to the carcasse. A blind man could've followed that trail even on the rocks and once he got to the bear grass it really stuck out.

I prefer to hunt fields and open areas with the muzzleloader. If there is snow so much the better. This gives an opportunity to watch the animal after the shot and increases likelihood of picking up the blood trail.

 

[Erussell01]

Roger that man and congrats on her success! IME muzzleloaders can deliver either really good or really bad blood trails depending on the bullet and time of year. I've hunted late season in Iowa for more than 20 years, and those furred up whitetails, especially the super fat does, sometimes don't bleed for a long ways if you don't get good expansion. The combination of fat, fur, and extreme cold can plug the entry/exit and freeze quickly.

I had really good luck with all lead bullets/sabots from an outfit in Canada called Precision Rifle (prbullet.com). They loaded easy and expanded and pancaked like a lead ball out to the farthest ranges I've shot (125ish). Last year I procrastinated after the elk hunt and ended up getting some Hornady SSTs because that's what Scheels had left. I was pleasantly surprised with their ease of loading, accuracy, and terminal performance on my daughters January buck.

The .44 mag was a single shot CVA break action. It would print 3" groups at 100 yards with Federal 240 grain JHP. The girls dropped two whitetails in their tracks with that rifle, one at 55 yards and the other at 109. Others were less than 50 yard recoveries with the longest shot being around 117.

Man that is awesome! I have only shot 1 deer with a muzzleloader and it was a complete debacle. I was 16 and had no idea what I was doing. I laid out in the snow covered alfalfa field in my goose blind, covered up in a white sheet, just a little Blaze orange cap sticking out and a huge group of does fed out to me. I looked at them feeding for a long time before a little buck came out. I slowly sat up and squeezed off a shot. That cloud of smoke was so big and just hung right there. I couldn't see a dang thing! When I stood up, the does were already back to feeding a couple hundred yards away, and I expected my buck to be laying right there. I looked up and he was feeding about 100 yards below the hill like nothing happened. I reloaded, and threw up the gun, BOOM! and as the smoke cleared, down he was. I got so excited I went to run up there and he started to get up, or try to. Turns out I had hit him high and broke his back. Iron sights off hand in the snow at 100 was apparently a tougher shot than I had prepared for. Panicking I tried to reload and dumped half my powder in the snow. Not knowing what to do I called grandpa. It was on my grandparents farm. He told me to go get a stick. The stick broke and so did my heart. Fearing the gun going off and not pushing the bullet out, I called him again panicking. He grumpily took the four wheeler out and met me at the spot with a 22 pistol to dispatch the poor little buck. Instead of the 1 well placed shot I expected, he got a little trigger. I still have the rack on the wall with 6 little 2 lr holes covered in epoxy to put the rack back together. Since then, I haven't shot a deer with the muzzleloader. I will absolutely hunt deer with it again, only this time I hope it goes better.

My dad hunts deer a lot with his 44 mag pistol and his muzzleloader. Some day I would love to shoot one with a 44 mag! He has had much the same experience as your daughters, and his muzzleloader experience with deer is much better than mine. I believe he also runs set's out of his 45 cal muzzleloader and something else from his 50 TC. I keep asking him to let me put a heated box blind on his place back home for him and my wife and or the niece and nephews to hunt late season deer coming to his beans but he hasn't yet. If my wife could have the heater in there I think she would enjoy it!

 

[BBob]

Interesting! I hear mixed reviews on ballistic tips, but it sounds like they don't stay together with high velocity impacts.

The original ballistic tips were very frangible and quickly earned a bad reputation. The second gen were much better but the jackets still tended to turn to shrapnel. The base would stay together but they lost a lot of weight even on Coues deer. They killed but didn’t seem ideal to us. I have no idea if they improved them after those early iterations or how todays BT’s might perform. The SMK’s were far cheaper and killed stuff in the 30 cal’s so we stuck with them even to this day. Here’s a Coues heart center shot with a 168 SMK. Small entry with a much bigger hole coming out and lots of blood spray on the other side. This guy didn’t make it but 2-3 feet out of his bed.

FWIW 310yds if I remember correctly. 2nd consecutive Coues in a row for this new hunter.

 

[Erussell01]

My elk is the only one I've killed with a high power. There was fur and blood where I shot him, and it was painted pretty good on the right (exit) side of the trail to the carcasse. A blind man could've followed that trail even on the rocks and once he got to the bear grass it really stuck out.

I prefer to hunt fields and open areas with the muzzleloader. If there is snow so much the better. This gives an opportunity to watch the animal after the shot and increases likelihood of picking up the blood trail.

That makes sense. I hunt a lot of thick nasty public land so watching them after the shot is sometimes tough. The doe I shot a couple years back with grandpas 30-06 made me realize just how hard it is to find where the deer was standing when you shot them at any distance. She was 120, and it was hard as heck to find the spot where I hit her. One blotch of blood on a little snow covered log got me back on track and she wasn't far from there.

 

[Erussell01]

The original ballistic tips were very frangible and quickly earned a bad reputation. The second gen were much better but the jackets still tended to turn to shrapnel. The base would stay together but they lost a lot of weight even on Coues deer. They killed but didn’t seem ideal to us. I have no idea if they improved them after those early iterations or how todays BT’s might perform. The SMK’s were far cheaper and killed stuff in the 30 cal’s so we stuck with them even to this day. Here’s a Coues heart center shot with a 168 SMK. Small entry with a much bigger hole coming out and lots of blood spray in the other side. This guy didn’t make it but 2-3 feet out of his bed.

Man that's a really nice Coues! Wow!

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

That makes sense. I hunt a lot of thick nasty public land so watching them after the shot is sometimes tough. The doe I shot a couple years back with grandpas 30-06 made me realize just how hard it is to find where the deer was standing when you shot them at any distance. She was 120, and it was hard as heck to find the spot where I hit her. One blotch of blood on a little snow covered log got me back on track and she wasn't far from there.

I'm fortunate to be able to hunt private land. My general approach to whitetails is to try and hunt them where they're going, not where they are. Notable exceptions to this being bowhunting transition and bedding areas during the rut. As a result, during early and late season, I try to position myself on the downwind side of feeding areas to reduce the amount of scent I leave in their core areas and also to maximize the amount of time I have to look at bucks before taking a shot.

A couple buddies of mine have large (5ac +) bean plots that they hunt over during late season. They've built mobile blinds on top of running gear or on 4x4 skids that they can drag around with a 4 wheeler or pickup. They insulate the shacks with spray foam or bats and heat them with those little buddy heaters.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

Man that would make things easier, but then how would I fill the void between my ears in the off season?

Brother, once you get past this rabbit hole there is plenty to fill that void.

I have nothing on my gear list for the past few years.

I keep myself plenty busy planning hunts and e-scouting. The gear is a stagnant variable that is a necessity. This variable will not put game on the ground. It's just a tool. Planning the hunt and executing the plan is where it's at. Paralysis by analysis is probably your limiting factor. Just get setup and start shooting so you're comfortable with the platform and different shooting situations.

 

[Erussell01]

I'm fortunate to be able to hunt private land. My general approach to whitetails is to try and hunt them where they're going, not where they are. Notable exceptions to this being bowhunting transition and bedding areas during the rut. As a result, during early and late season, I try to position myself on the downwind side of feeding areas to reduce the amount of scent I leave in their core areas and also to maximize the amount of time I have to look at bucks before taking a shot.

A couple buddies of mine have large (5ac +) bean plots that they hunt over during late season. They've built mobile blinds on top of running gear or on 4x4 skids that they can drag around with a 4 wheeler or pickup. They insulate the shacks with spray foam or bats and heat them with those little buddy heaters.

That sounds almost like heaven....

I hunt deer in the thick because the food is on private or is not necessarily a traditional field food source

 

[Erussell01]

Brother, once you get past this rabbit hole there is plenty to fill that void.

I have nothing on my gear list for the past few years.

I keep myself plenty busy planning hunts and e-scouting. The gear is a stagnant variable that is a necessity. This variable will not put game on the ground. It's just a tool. Planning the hunt and executing the plan is where it's at. Paralysis by analysis is probably your limiting factor. Just get setup and start shooting so you're comfortable with the platform and different shooting situations

Since I have nothing to hunt right now, I'm chasing walleyes, training dogs and preparing for fall.

I'm still building my western gear list. That is new to me. Haven't changed a thing in my archery whitetail set up in years. Still dialing in my personal gear set up for elk. Don't have enough reps to know what's going to fail and what's going to stay for years.

Rifles for big game are new to me. Hence the desire to learn and find as much information to shorten my learning curve as possible.

When time comes to pull the trigger, I will have thought about, studied, planned, prepared, tested, evaluated, and retested my setup enough to feel 100% confident in my ability to kill that animal Cleanly and effectively. I hate going to the woods feeling unprepared. I am there to take a life and I believe I need to honor that by preparing.

I shoot my bow twice daily. I train hard 5-6 days a week all year. I shoot my rifle weekly. I shoot my Shotgun weekly. I practice calling daily. I e scout the areas I have tags for and review and revise my pins. I study access locations and find food and water sources. I stay current in the skills and things that I need to ensure my success. I camp in the summer for practice come elk season I know how to start fires, tie knots, stop the bleed etc.

I totally agree with what you are saying, but I'm by no means paralyzed. Just hungry to learn. I'm also a nutcase for this stuff. I can't stop thinking about hunting. It keeps me awake thinking about elk hunting. I can hear that first bugle.

I love forums like this because it gives me access to people like you with more experience in different areas than I have. It helps me feel like I can learn more faster with less hardship and failure. I'd love to pick your brain more about all kinds of things. Any information I can gather that was built on your experience makes it easier for me to be successful.

Maybe I'm a fruitloop. But hey, at least I'm not an Elmer Fudd hitting the woods not knowing how far their rifle is zeroed.

 

[Formidilosus]

Rifles for big game are new to me. Hence the desire to learn and find as much information

Rifles mess things up. Damaged meat is going to happen.

to shorten my learning curve as possible.

Read the 223 thread.

When time comes to pull the trigger, I will have thought about, studied, planned, prepared, tested, evaluated, and retested my setup enough to feel 100% confident in my ability to kill that animal Cleanly and effectively. I hate going to the woods feeling unprepared. I am there to take a life and I believe I need to honor that by preparing.

I shoot my bow twice daily. I train hard 5-6 days a week all year. I shoot my rifle weekly. I shoot my Shotgun weekly. I practice calling daily. I e scout the areas I have tags for and review and revise my pins. I study access locations and find food and water sources. I stay current in the skills and things that I need to ensure my success. I camp in the summer for practice come elk season I know how to start fires, tie knots, stop the bleed etc.

What is your rifle setup then? Rifle? Scope, mounts?

 

[roosiebull]

The supply issue is really hurting my ability to tinker and plink. I lucked out and got a couple cases of 130gr hollow points to play with so I'm able to shoot recreationally and not burn all my good ammo. Then I can give the brass to my dad and he can cook me up stuff. He is a really "mellow" reloaded and often produces really accurate loads that are not anywhere near maxed on speed. He also loves old school bullets and getting him to load a poly tipped bullet is about like pulling teeth lol. I'm working on it though

That’s why I’m getting the .308, until a few months ago, I would have put it as one of the least likely for me to own… I was sure my next rifle would be a custom 257wby, but that’s on the back burner now… when I get the rifle itch again I will probably have one built and stock up on reloading components while waiting for the build to get finished